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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 17, 2012 7:22:08 GMT -5
Good Morning Gentlemen,
Allow me to introduce myself, I am Admiral Skipashita of the Imperial Japanese Navy. My alternate ego is Admiral Skippashinski of the Imperial Russian Navy. My interest is pre-dreadnaught and the Russo Japanese War specifically. My first command was the Chin Yen oh so many years ago. I still have a fondness for the old girl.
I have converted Naval Thunder: Clash of the Dreadnaughts to a game played with 1/1250 models on a hex gridded ocean. Now I know that many of you prefer an un-gridded playing surface and most of you are playing with models in the 1/2400-1/3000 scale range. Nothing wrong with that. But when I began naval gaming (when dinosaurs like me ruled the earth) we played with 1/1250 scale ships because, that's all there was back in those olden times. I still prefer the scale.
The gridded ocean makes measuring movement and ranges SO much easier and it removes the possibility you will whack one of your models with the ruler or tape measure. Also, I have noticed, during games the table seems to collect all kinds of detritus, like reference sheets, ship cards, dice, etc etc. It spoils the appearance of the un-gridded ocean. So, why worry about it and just use a grid system? That's my reasoning anyway.
At the request of the Admiral I posted my conversion for larger models elsewhere on the board but thought I would start a thread for the larger model player. I know that some of you are using the 1/1000 Houston ships and this should be of interest to you specifically and others.
In the coming days I'll discuss 1/1250 models and my conversion of the rules for same. We'll also discuss the 1/1250 models available and where to buy them. We'll also look at some larger scales, specifically the 1/600 scale models on offer from Old Glory.
I'll post some pictures of my collection, currently 30 1/1250 RJW Japanese and 23 RJW Russian vessels. I'll also post some pictures from recent games. I'll post some scenarios as well to include Chemulpo and Ulsan.
I hope you will enjoy this thread and join me in the discussion.
You may fire when ready, Gridley.
Skip Nicholson, OKC aka Admiral Skipashita aka Admiral Skippashinski
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Post by ckosacranoid on Aug 17, 2012 16:28:06 GMT -5
welcome to the group. I myself run 1/1000 scale thats what i found a couple of years ago. and please share pics.
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 17, 2012 19:12:40 GMT -5
Cho
Will do and thanks. I'm chilling tonight with a little sangria but I'll get busy tomorrow posting my large scale version of the game and I'll try to post some pictures as soon as I get a new card for my camera.
"It's dead Jim."
Too many deletes and re-records.
Skip
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 17, 2012 19:31:51 GMT -5
Hello Gentlemen,
As previously stated my preferred scale is 1/1250 and the good news is there are lots of options in this scale, although sadly one of the best manufacuturers is no long producing their pre-dreadnaught line. But you can still find them on ebay.
NAVIS/ Neptune 1/1250 ships are available for WWI, WWII, RJW and SpanAm wars. They have a fairely comprehensive line and are available from ALNAVCO and Morning Sunshine Models. Navis are made in Germany.
HAI 1/250 ships are made in Austria and have an amazing line of ships for pre-dreadnaught vessels and even some pre-pre-dreadnaught vessels. They are high quality and nicely painted. It appears to me that Hai is trying to make the ships that Navis, Mercator and others have ignored. They fill a lot of gaps in your fleet. They are available from Morning Sunshine Models.
Grybowski 1/1250 have a small selection of Russian pre-dreadnaughts in addition to their other models. They have models of the cruiser Bogatyr, Oleg and one or two others. Again, Morning Sunshine Models carries them.
Copy 1/1250 are recasts of a Neptune series of models and they make a number of beautiful Russian ships including Rossiya, Rurik, Gromoboi, and several others. They also make ONE French pre-dreadnaught. It's a small line but reasonably priced and beautiful models. Morning Sunshine Models carries this line as well.
All these models come pre-painted, some to a very high standard, and are expensive. Destroyers 8-20 dollars, Cruisers 30-40 dollars and Battleships in the $50 range. But, there is good news.
You can find both ALNAVCO and Morning Sunshine Models on line. I've done quite a lot of business with Bill Wermer at MSM Ships and I like doing business with him.
Bill has quite a large stock of older models, which he sells at the old price. He does not jack up the prices just because the new version of the model sells for much more. He also carries a lot of "used" models and by that he means they had a previous owner. These are dirt cheap. Right now you can get the Japanese Battleship Hatsuse from him for $16 in 1/1250 scale, pre-painted. Lots of other cool stuff. Visit his web-site for more information.
No, I don't work for Bill and I'm not a part owner in the company. But I have done quite a bit of business with him and he's treated me fairly and has been very accomdating.
Now, the empty chair. Mercator. Made in Germany they offered a BEAUTIFUL line of Russian Pre-Dreadnaughts for the RJW. I understand that Skytrex bought them and they continue to produce their cruise line ships but NOBODY produces their pre-dreadnaught warships anymore to my knowledge.
The good news is you can find them from time to time on ebay and especially GERMAN Ebay. The bad news is they are very expensive. But if you want a 1/1250 model of Tsarevish or Retvisan, you've got to look for an old Mercator Model.
More good news, maybe. Bill at MSM Ships is going to suggest that HAI produce the ships that Mercator used to make so there may be hope yet of obtaining a VARYAG or RETVISAN or TSAREVICH in 1/1250 scale. But probably not for a year or more.
SO. Go to the Morning Sunshine Models web-site and browse around. They have some cool stuff and so does ALNAVCO.
More to follow.....
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Post by warchariot on Aug 18, 2012 7:21:36 GMT -5
Yes, Welcome Aboard. My group plays in all sizes, 1/6000, 1/2400, 1/1250 and 1/1000, and would be interested in your hex conversions as we find using hexes so much easier and not the least bit distracting. Maybe it’s our old eyes as I’m the youngest in our group at 56. You have mentioned several sellers and I would second that Bill at Morning Sunshine Models as great to work with as he lets you know what he has on hand. I find ALNAVCO a bit more difficult as you don’t know if he has ships in stock, but back orders for you. Not always a good thing as back orders can take a long time to show. E-bay has been a great place to order/buy models for me as they are normally at a lower price if you are careful. The only issue I’ve had is finding what I want. I did buy an Agincourt for less than $15 including shipping awhile back, so keep a weather-eye out for those deals.
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 18, 2012 18:26:37 GMT -5
Warchariot
LOVE THE PICTURES. Whoooboy, I'm impressed you rigged some of the models. I'm tempted, strongly tempted and have been thinking about it but I havn't taken the plunge yet.
This is just a quick reply while I wait on the wife to return with carry outs. Taco Bell, hmmmm. I will post the conversion tonight. I'm afraid I can't reciprocate with pictures because I'm still without card for the point and shoot but will do so soon.
I bought some 1/2400 from Panzerschiffe...but I just couldn't go that small. I've got the battleships for both sides for Yellow Sea...I tried to paint Tsarevich but was never happy with the result. So it's going to have to be 1/1250 for me.
I'd love to see more pictures. I'm sure you noticed that Bill has a Warspite and an Iron Duke for $15 each. I'm tempted. But I'm really more of a pre-dreadnaught man. But the price is right.
I found ALNAVCO difficult to do business with as well. He's nice enough and friendly and helpful but his stock seems very limited.
Bill will order it for me if he doesn't have it and can usuaslly get it inside a month.
Mama's home, gotta go....ahhh I love the smell of Taco Bell in the evening.
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 18, 2012 19:03:57 GMT -5
I'm converting the game to a hex system and, as stated, playing the game in 1250 scale. My interest is pre-dreadnaught and specifically Russo-Japanese War. The average 1/1250 scale capital ship is about 4" long so we're using an "ocean" marked in 4" hexes. (I ordered the hex marked ocean mats from Hotz Mats in Canada.) According to my precise calculations and using Harry's guidelines for a more scale specific range and movement system we've lengthened the ranges. He suggested doubling the range for 2400 scale ships and since I'm using 1/1250 scale models I doubled it again. The basic movement and range factor equals 4". Yep, it takes a lot of table top real estate (or floor) but it gives a good game without the need for measuring movement and ranges with a ruler or tape.
By doing it this way the game can be played "as written" more or less.
Movement factors are read in hexes, not inches. So, a cruiser with a "5" movement factor can move five hexes.
Ranges are read in hexes, not inches, so the long range of an 8" gun is 18 hexes for example. Torpedo Long Range is 3 hexes.
When firing beyond "20" you are firing beyond 20 hexes and you add +1 for each additional hex.
When turning you must move one hex straight forward on your current course before turning one hex face to port or starboard. Then you must make another straight move before turning another hex face port or starboard.
We've eliminated the "agile battleship" rule. You may apply this rule to DD's and TB's if you like or leave it as is if you like. It's a matter of personal taste but I like to see those BB's making those wide turns like everybody else.
With the exception of DD's and TB's it's one ship to the hex. DD's and TB's are ONE FLOTILLA to the hex. Since our Flotillas tend to be only 3-4 ships it's not too much trouble to move them individually. However, if your flotillas are larger you may extend the Flotilla to an additional one or two contiguous hexes if you need more space.
Command distance is four hexes.
Obviously you cannot move through a hex that contains another ship without a collision.
Gun ranges are pretty obvious and the visual aspect of the game is slightly lessened by the hexes, but game tables tend to collect all kinds of detritus anyway (ship cards, reference sheets, dice, etc) so it doesn't take away from the game that much and it speeds up and simplifies play immensely when you don't have measure the movement or the range (and occasionally whack your models with a tape measure or ruler).
When I started Naval gaming back in the early 70's we used 1/1250 and it's hard for me to move to the smaller ships. WE used to play our games in true scale on a ballroom floor at the local university. I tried teh 2400 scale ships, I just prefer the larger models.
I'm sure I'm not the first one to make this conversion and your comments would be welcome.
If you like, I'll send a few pictures of our next game.
Take care, I look forward to hearing from you.
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 18, 2012 19:08:49 GMT -5
Oh, one last thing. For those of you using the Houston 1/1000 ships...Richard Houston lives here in Oklahoma City (I can see his house from my office window). I've know him for years. He is getting on in years and is tranferring his business operations to another local friend of mine, Patrick Wilson.
Patrick operates THE VIRTUAL ARMCHAIR GENERAL which is an on-line purveyor of the unique and mostly victorian type games. I'm really doing him a disservice. His operation is much more comprehensive than that. Anyway, you can check it out on his web-site THE VIRTUAL ARMCHAIR GENERAL. Sometime in the coming months he will be producing the entire Houston range of products.
He also does flags which can be purchased as downloads and printed on your computer. He recently sized a bunch of Japanese and Russian naval ensigns for me including Admirals flags, etc. Contact Patrick and tell him what you need. He may have it or can get it for a reasonable price.
All for now.
You may fire when ready Kobayashi.
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Post by warchariot on Aug 19, 2012 13:53:49 GMT -5
I replaced the masts and did a little rigging because the 1250 ships have such soft metal masts and we have big fat fingers. I like the hex counting instead of incresing the the speed/range so to speak. We are about ready to have a go at Falkland Islands game here in the near future, I'll get some pictures.
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 20, 2012 20:14:34 GMT -5
Ooops, I have to retract part of what I said. Patrick tells me that Houston sold his 1/1000 ship line to someone else a few years back and that is NOT a line that will be carried by THE VIRUTAL ARMCHAIR GENERAL. Sorry for the misinformation.
I'll look forward to the pictures of the Falkland Islands game.
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 21, 2012 17:36:08 GMT -5
It came to me in a dream.....oh wait, that was something else entirely.
I was thinking that you guys doing 1/2400 scale could get a mat from Hotz Matz in Canada with 2 inche hexes and as above, the game would play virtually as written just reading "hexes" instead of "inches" for all ranges and movement. It automatically doubles the ranges for a truer scale range.
You'll need to make adjustments for turns, I suggest the rule outlined above, but you might have other thoughts. You can get a 45x72 inch matt in a couple of different ocean color and pre-printed with 2" hexes for about $62 shipping included (From Canada to the US).
Just thought I"d mention it.
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Post by warchariot on Aug 26, 2012 9:46:36 GMT -5
It came to me in a dream.....oh wait, that was something else entirely. I was thinking that you guys doing 1/2400 scale could get a mat from Hotz Matz in Canada with 2 inche hexes and as above, the game would play virtually as written just reading "hexes" instead of "inches" for all ranges and movement. It automatically doubles the ranges for a truer scale range. You'll need to make adjustments for turns, I suggest the rule outlined above, but you might have other thoughts. You can get a 45x72 inch matt in a couple of different ocean color and pre-printed with 2" hexes for about $62 shipping included (From Canada to the US). Just thought I"d mention it. We were thinking the same thing!
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Post by admiralskipashita on Aug 26, 2012 11:55:16 GMT -5
Well, never let it be said I lack a keen sense of the obvious! Tora! Tora! Tora! (oy vay)
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Post by admiralskipashita on Sept 9, 2012 7:49:51 GMT -5
Good Morning Gentlemen. Playtesting continues on the hex adaptation of Naval Thunder: Rise of the Battleship and I must say I"m very pleased with the playability of the adaptation. We have a clarification and a possible change to the above rules and we would appreciate your feedback. Clarification: You do NOT have to move straight before making a turn IN THE SAME MOVEMENT PHASE. If your ship made a straight move in the previous turn then it may begin the current movement phase by turning one hex face to port or starboard. Followed by a straight move and then by another turn if you wish. Proposed Change: We are considering allowing Destroyers and Torpedo boats to turn two hex faces without having to make the straight move between turns and we would appreciate your thoughts. This would mean, in effect, that DD's and TB's could turn up to TWO hex faces in place paying one movement point for each hex face, before making a straight move. Your thoughts? I'm going out to get a new memory card for my camera today and hopefully will be able to post pictures very soon. I was teaching the game to an old friend of mine yesterday and we started with a simple cruiser action (Tsushima vs. Boyarin) and had a great game. Poor Boyarin was just shot to pieces and forced to flee. We also tried a modified Ulsan scenario with the three Russian armored cruisers battling the four Japanese Armored Cruisers. A much closer game. Rurik was reduced to ONE hex of movement a turn but was otherwise in pretty good shape. Gromoboi was pretty shot up but still afloat and in the fight. The Japanese Flaship Idzumo was dead in the water and badly shot up and Gromoboi was moving into torpedo range when we had to call it. I felt pretty confident that Idzumo would sleep with the fishes but the other three Japanese Armored Cruisers wer virtually untouched and my three were pretty battered. It was a tough fight but we both had a great time. Everytime I play Naval Thunder I am amazed at the simplicity and elegance of the rules. I have yet to have anything "unrealistic" happen and find the games very representative of the period. Plus they are just a heck of a lot of fun. I like the game so much I bought the World War II bundle and a bunch of airfix and revell plastic 1/1200 waterline models (Bismarck, Prinze Eugen, Hood, King George V, etc.) and am looking forward to trying the WWII game in the near future. While I love the 1/1200 plastic models I'm thinking if I decide to get into World War II in a big way I'll go with the War At Sea minis. They'll work on my 4" hex ocean much more conveniently than the beautiful 1/1200 models. I appreciate and enjoy your feedback and look forward to hearing from you. Admiral Skipashita Kobayashi has konked out!
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