kashre
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by kashre on May 2, 2011 1:07:46 GMT -5
"Well... his examples all seem to be vanilla CBF ships... taking MvM ships with no shields against his missile ships seems a bit unfair... because really, if this was a pickup game and we were building units blind (the way we always play here) you wouldn't know if he had all missiles or not, and would have to have some shielding just in case he had all rail ships or somesuch." Is it unfair to the missile ships or the Colonial...as you say in a pick-up game I wouldn't know, but we/I don't usually take shields, but put that into armor and bigger guns, more FC and fighters. Why? Because my group doesn't use shield much unless it's a ST style game. It sounds like you anf your GF use shields, but against your new group, who knows. We always try to fool each other next time around. My point is, ASGMs can't and don't win every time because as a player you learn what your opponent does and counter that, just like in the real military. My pick of ships was to try with one ship, no screens, Tigers only, no clusters and little ECM to see which would win. I know my ship is an AV 10, and Bubba Cleese was talking against a AV6-8 but he isn't going to get to pick the ships he fights against. One last thing, If I can destroy an equal or better number of ships that cost the same number of points as mine, I consider that points well spend! Well, you have a point about the ability to ditch shields in favor of getting bigger ships with more armor even in a vanilla pickup game with blind builds. If you go the route of fewer, larger ships to keep your max armor stat high that works pretty well. He's talking about ships (I think) built with all tech levels at 5 too, and the only thing I see on the Armageddon D that you can't get without MvM is the Tiger, so maybe that would be a fair match up. If you had one of those against one of his BCRs and one of his CAs, even if he got to the sweet spot to get auto-hits with the missiles I think I'd put my money on the Armageddeon... Kashre
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Post by bubbacleese on May 2, 2011 8:27:00 GMT -5
First of all, thank all of you very much for taking serious interest into my posting. Special thanks to those of you going to the effort of play testing my idea. When you do play test ensure to only fire your missiles once you are inside range eight thus avoiding missing the target. Yes, my tactical idea will have these ships diving straight in quick and dirty.
After re-reading the missile movement and combat I agree that the Destroyer missile blocker will intercept all missile on that line. Thanks for making me re-read and think outside of that box.
Sorry for the late post, I was running a play testing of my new Ancients rules all day at our local game store.
Tonight when I get home I'll post my ship builds for both BC and CA. I only have the Core rules as I've not picked up MvM yet, what is a Tiger I keep seeing you posts?
Things I most like about these rules: 1) Ships classes building restrictions (can't have all Destroyers in your force.) Our last campaign was using Full Thrust and I broke two campaigns in a row as they have no restrictions to what can go into a given fleet. In Full Thrust your smaller ships costs make them a better build, so when I showed up with 36 corvettes with two direct fire weapons each it was a game killer. 2) Ship Roles which give the game flavor and works hand in hand with ship class restrictions within a fleet.
My original post should of had these questions: 1. What are all of the defenses against missiles? (a. PD when the missile enters your hex; b. PD when you slide up next to the missiles; c. ? anything else ?
Bubba Cleese
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Post by TheDreadnought on May 2, 2011 8:43:58 GMT -5
Bonus point defense from screening ships the U.S.S. Meatshield defense (quite effective although unfortunate for the crew) Cluster Missiles Grape Shot Maneuvering - it's actually very possible to get in close to your opponent and be outside of his missile arcs if you're in one of his blind spots. So getting in position to get auto hits is a lot harder than simply being inside 8 hexes against a skilled opponent.
MvM also has: Rules for fighters to shoot down missiles Tiger gunships that are equipped with ECM suites
Its easy to see "they skip shields" and "you can auto-hit at 8 hexes or less" but without actually playing the game against an opponent who has played more than once or twice, you don't really understyand all the complexity of movement and tactics involved. To really understand why this is actually REALLY hard to do, and certainly not something you could do reliably, you've got to try it a few times, as I described above.
So don't worry. . . you're not going to break CB, with ASGMs or anything else anybody has come up with so far.
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Post by bubbacleese on May 2, 2011 10:43:27 GMT -5
So don't worry. . . you're not going to break CB, with ASGMs or anything else anybody has come up with so far. That is the best news I've had in a while. I've had my Star Fleet Wars miniatures by Superior Models for 30 years <pictures coming soon> and just recently have been able to play with them with Full Thrust. The original rules for Star Fleet Wars were not any good and so we would use the miniatures for Star Fleet Battles and anything else we could find. I've shown some of my friends a five or six turn quick fight just to show off CB basic rules and turn sequence. I had designed some really ships for us all to use (really bad designs as I did not know what I was doing with the ship designer ), and when the missiles flew out and just gutted the target ship several of the players were not pleases with their power. So yes, we are very inexperienced at playing CB and am looking forward to learning more as soon as possible. We have a group of 10 or so who have fleets and are looking for a better system than what we current have seen. So far I'm very very happy with CB. I would like to say at this time that I agree with you all that ASGM are NOT a game killer. Bubba Cleese
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Post by TheDreadnought on May 2, 2011 14:49:12 GMT -5
Well you'll be happy to know that a "star-wars-style" combat Fleet Book supplement in in the queue. So more stuff to tailor the game to exactly that style of play is in the works.
And ASGMs are a part of the game that requires a lot of skill both to use and defend against effectively. I guarantee you your groups going to be a lot more cautious about how close they allow those missile cruisers to get. . . and eventually figure out how to position their ships to be in missile "dead zones" even if they are close.
That's one of the reasons CB is a game that you'll keep coming back to. It's not just a dice fest. There's a lot of fun tactical thinking that needs to happen. . . and generally speaking the better tactician will win, regardless of ship designs.
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Post by warchariot on May 2, 2011 22:26:55 GMT -5
A little more about MvM which is a BSG style game. It contains nine new fighter profiles including gunships which are tough fighters that in the case of the Tiger have micro-jump, ECM, nukes, and boarding marines. They can also direct fire at enemy ships much like scouts can in the basic game.
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kashre
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by kashre on May 7, 2011 18:27:59 GMT -5
Well you'll be happy to know that a "star-wars-style" combat Fleet Book supplement in in the queue. So more stuff to tailor the game to exactly that style of play is in the works. And ASGMs are a part of the game that requires a lot of skill both to use and defend against effectively. I guarantee you your groups going to be a lot more cautious about how close they allow those missile cruisers to get. . . and eventually figure out how to position their ships to be in missile "dead zones" even if they are close. That's one of the reasons CB is a game that you'll keep coming back to. It's not just a dice fest. There's a lot of fun tactical thinking that needs to happen. . . and generally speaking the better tactician will win, regardless of ship designs. Honestly. missiles don't have a lot of dead zones once they're within 9 hexes. Within 7 hexes, there are literally only 6 one hex "dead zones" unless an adjacent ship is blocking a launch hex or a screening ship is between you and the target. anyways, I posted an AAR using ships similar to the ones Bubbecleese was suggesting. www.steeldreadnought.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=aar&thread=659Was a close game, and if I had made one less mistake or won the initiative on one or two critical turns I think I would have won with the missiles.... they're plenty viable, but not the "I win" button.
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