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Post by lincolnlog on May 1, 2011 2:22:24 GMT -5
I'm working on a set of house rules for aircraft, and ran across a stumbling block--for those occasions when aircraft attack ships. Are Dual Purpose weapons factored into each ships AA value?
If so, this probably assumes that surface gunnery and AAA combat is usually not occuring during the same time frame. Although there are a few exceptions. In thoses cases are the secondaries that are DP considered to be able to fire twice?
I know this is probably going above and beyond the intent of the game, but for a detailed set of aircraft rules will need to get more detailed in the intent of the game mechanics.
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Post by TheDreadnought on May 1, 2011 10:11:48 GMT -5
Yes, dual purpose guns are figured into the aa rating. So ships should be allowed to use them to fire at surface targets OR aircaft but not both.
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Post by admiralgrafspee on May 1, 2011 16:34:52 GMT -5
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on May 1, 2011 17:29:52 GMT -5
Happened at least once when the main body of the IJN fleet engaged the escort carriers of Taffy 3 off Samar. The IJN was dodging A/C attacks while engaging the surface ships.
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Post by lincolnlog on May 1, 2011 18:36:44 GMT -5
Happened at least once when the main body of the IJN fleet engaged the escort carriers of Taffy 3 off Samar. The IJN was dodging A/C attacks while engaging the surface ships. Samar was the example I was thinking of, although I do believe this situation occured early in the war in some of the Java Sea battles. Role reverval, as ABDA ships simultaneously fought surface units and aircraft. |
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Post by lincolnlog on May 1, 2011 18:43:16 GMT -5
Sure, I would be happy to! I have been crunching numbers and one of the issues is the short turn (4min) and large ground scale (1"=500 Yards). After converting aircraft speeds from MPH to Kts, even slow aircraft will move 70" per turn. The short turn helps to offset the ground scale slightly. So, the answer might be to chop the air phase into two or three phases. Hmmmm, I'll look at your rules to see how you got around this. Bob |
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Post by lincolnlog on May 1, 2011 18:50:38 GMT -5
Yes, dual purpose guns are figured into the aa rating. So ships should be allowed to use them to fire at surface targets OR aircaft but not both. Thanks Dread, thought that was the correct interpretation. |
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on May 2, 2011 0:32:52 GMT -5
It might have happened during the Channel Dash too. I can't remember whether the RN surface forces attacked during one of the air attacks.
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Post by admiralgrafspee on May 2, 2011 0:35:47 GMT -5
Sure, I would be happy to! I have been crunching numbers and one of the issues is the short turn (4min) and large ground scale (1"=500 Yards). After converting aircraft speeds from MPH to Kts, even slow aircraft will move 70" per turn. The short turn helps to offset the ground scale slightly. So, the answer might be to chop the air phase into two or three phases. Hmmmm, I'll look at your rules to see how you got around this. Bob I just have my planes show up. You assign them to ships after escorts and cap duel it out. It's really just an extension of what is in there now except for different tables etc. What I definitely have wrong is the planes landing but then shoeing up again 25 minutes later. Didn't realize that turns where 5 minutes at the time. But I was trying to make them as effective as they are in the current rules where they get 3 sorties. Ya 70" is pretty fast. It might be worth slowing them down a tad even if it's not totally realistic. |
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Post by regiamarina on May 2, 2011 0:55:08 GMT -5
I have always factored DP guns into AA when doing sheets so good to know I was right there.
With regards to the speed you have to accept planes are significantly faster than ships. The only plane I can think of to struggle with speed was the swordfish which was outrun during the Channel Dash, I think due to the head wind. However you could compensate for this by reducing the attacking speed of the aircraft from max to an optimal attack speed. Bombers tended not to attack at max speed as it made for very inaccurate bombing.
Martin
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Post by lincolnlog on May 2, 2011 1:54:07 GMT -5
However you could compensate for this by reducing the attacking speed of the aircraft from max to an optimal attack speed. Bombers tended not to attack at max speed as it made for very inaccurate bombing. Martin True, as a matter of fact, torpedo bobmers had to get low and slow, the torpedoes (especially American toperdoes) were too fragile to be dropped from high-no more than 50'- or fast moving aircraft. Also 70" in that case came from the maximum speed for a F4F Wildcat, cruising speed would be somewhat lower of course. I'm thinking maybe dividing the Air Phase in half (approach/intercept phase) foloowed by an (AAA/Attack phase). Bob |
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Post by regiamarina on May 2, 2011 2:21:46 GMT -5
Yup I was thinking of torpedo bombers especially as the torpedo was too fragile to drop at high speed. Dive bombers had dive brakes added to slow the plane down during a dive to help with accuracy and to ensure the plane didn't brake apart. All this means the plane moved slower than maximum possible.
I think your example plane is also probably a poor choice as the F4F, though it is a slower fighter compared to some of the European ones, it is still significantly faster than a bomber. I would suggest simply setting a generic speed at which all bombers move during their attack runs.
Martin
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on May 2, 2011 12:42:12 GMT -5
Something to consider is if the torpedo bombers and dive bombers are able to make a simultaneous attack do you divide the AA against each target?
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Post by TheDreadnought on May 2, 2011 14:41:40 GMT -5
I would imagine, that AA wouldn't be reactive fire. You'd give it a range, and handle it at the beginning of the shooting phase.
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Post by admiralgrafspee on May 2, 2011 15:23:24 GMT -5
I would imagine, that AA wouldn't be reactive fire. You'd give it a range, and handle it at the beginning of the shooting phase. By that line of thought would you suggest something like this: Movement Phase/Combat Phase Order: -Battlehips -Cruisers -Destroyers -Aircraft (possibly with some sub phases of CAP/Escort last and shooting first or with some ability to interrupt movement or locking down targets). Also, what range should AA be? 12"? |
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Post by TheDreadnought on May 2, 2011 15:31:17 GMT -5
Sure.
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Post by fastgit on May 2, 2011 16:12:57 GMT -5
Something to consider is if the torpedo bombers and dive bombers are able to make a simultaneous attack do you divide the AA against each target? Good point. That should divide a ship's AA. Assuming, of course, that the attacking force can coordinate. |
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Post by TheDreadnought on May 11, 2011 9:48:54 GMT -5
So how are these going?? Anything to share?
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Post by admiralgrafspee on May 12, 2011 12:09:36 GMT -5
Something to consider is if the torpedo bombers and dive bombers are able to make a simultaneous attack do you divide the AA against each target? Good point. That should divide a ship's AA. Assuming, of course, that the attacking force can coordinate. The only games I've seen where this isn't the case is when AA is purely a reaction to being attacked. As it stands now in NT you have to allocate your AA dice between the different types of attack craft. I would expect this aspect would be quite easy to maintain with expanded rules. The more I think about it the more I like NOT having a distinct air phase. Not sure what this would mean for dog fighting - but perhaps its not really necessary here (planes could just shoot each other). I've also been contemplating aircraft carriers vs. land based aircraft. I think there would be merit in allowing carriers to have x% of their flights start in the air, otherwise they could spend most of the game just launching flights. For land-based aircraft their arrival should be somewhat unpredictable. Perhaps you have to roll at the start of each turn to see if they show up. |
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theguy
Lieutenant
Those with the biggest guns win
Posts: 36
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Post by theguy on Aug 8, 2012 23:26:41 GMT -5
wouldn't the multi-purpose guns be limited to 5 or 6in guns and lower calibers?
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