A Kizin-like race for Colinial Battlefleet

[sieffre]

Our local gaming group has started the conversion from Full Thrust to Colonial Battlefleet. Personally, I have a large collection of ADB's Kzinti ships. Has anyone done any work on including / adding a Kzin-like race to Colonial Battlefleet?

I can only hope!

Sieffre

[TheDreadnought]

What would you imagine would make this Kzin-like race unique?

Why can't you just create one with the race creation tools?

[hamilton]

Seems fairly straightforward. Base rules, give them 1 or 2 disruptor hardpoints with F/P/S (1) or F/P and F/S (2). One hardpoint with a few gatling lasers, maybe F/P/S or P/S. Then fill up on ASGMs and Clusters, or a mix of missiles and fighters for their carriers.

Tech - maybe 3/3/5/3/4/2 (meets the 20 point rule)
max FT for strike bonus and FFTs. QM 2 gives the disruptors, but not transporters, so weigh that. 3 CW gives them all of the missile options.

For their faction bonus, maybe something to give them more missiles to throw around. All missiile ammo cost is -1, or they get free ammo equal to ship size in missile hardpoints only? Hard to gauge faction powers breaking the balance.

Post whatever you come up with!

[sieffre]

Aug 14, 2011 20:25:03 GMT -5 TheDreadnought said:

What would you imagine would make this Kzin-like race unique?

Why can't you just create one with the race creation tools?

I realize that we are new to the game but I don't recall seeing any 'race creation rules'.. Where do I find them?

Hamilton: Thank you very much. You've obviously read Niven and I appreciaye the constructive response. It appears that the technology allocation options are adequate insofar as describing or limiting technology but they do nothing to 'describe' a race that is not actually humans or very human-like.

[TheDreadnought]

Now I'm really confused. . .

The race creation rules are in the optional rules section.

But beyond describing technologies. . . not really sure what you're looking for in a 'race description'. Tactics are really up to the player playing them. Of course you could come up with whatever you want for a racial benefit, so maybe that is what you need to focus on?

[sieffre]

Are you refering to the Tech Level profile in the optional rules as 'race creation rules?

In our previous rules (and in Niven's universe) the Kzin were larger, quicker and stronger than humans with better reflexes. On the other side, they were less flexible in innovative thinking and subject to Blood Lust..

They used Disruptors, Beam Weapons, Strike Fighters and Drones (lots and lots of drones!). All of that can be done in Colonial Battlefleet. Their ships could take more G-forrces than humans (possibly an additional Faction Benefit bonus to their Delta? ( I'm not sure how to enter a Faction Benefit in the Shipyard.)).

Larger, quicker and stronger would only affect boarding combat which we are not yet into so I'm passing that by for now. Faster reflexes should possibly give them a Faction Benefit bonus to their Fire Control. At that point, I'll need some type of offset to get the two plusses from breaking the balance.

At this moment I'm leaning towards a 3/2/5/3/4/3 technology tree.


Constructive suggestions are always appreciated.

[hamilton]

If the faction benefit affects ship costs, you'd have to either modify the shipyard or do corrections after the fact.
It sounds like you're mixing the SFU Kzinti and Niven Kzinti. I don't think of the SFU Kzinti as having faster ships, but the Niven Gravity Polarizer type does.
If you want Niven Kzinti, I think the MvM rules would work well as a starting point - no shields, lots of armor, fighter heavy. Just get rid of FTL for First War, add it back for Second and beyond. Use a lot of lasers and possibly enlist Fusion Torpedoes as a stand-in for fusion drives as weapons.
I'd have to reread MKW books to see if they used missile weapons - don't recall them offhand. But they did have large carriers (units carried are probably closer to gunships though) and battleships!

Someone had brought up battleriders in a previous thread - maybe you could look at some of those ideas for Niven-Kzinti carriers. Instead of fighters/gunships, the carriers could devote tonnage to carrying some small size 1s - like 40-44 tons. Those ships would not count towards fleet limits and could have some command & control range restrictions from the carrier as fighters do, and build 'em as Patrol Boats so they can scream.

I think we're getting into House Rules and Faction/Ship Design territory, so maybe this discussion should move to one of those.

[sieffre]

You are correct, I was confusing the two in my mind.

I tried designing a 40 t0n DDP and came up with the following: Delta = 4, Shield = 2, Armor = 2, P.Def = 1, Fire Control = 1, Turbo Laser (P/F/S) = 1 and Missile, AGSM x 4. Of course, that is just one configuration among forty-eleven possibilities. That is without any Faction Benefits as that is still a very gray area to me.

Do you leave space for the battleriders by simply allowing 40 tons of unallocated space per rider?

Thank you. I'll keep pondering as I learn more about these rules.

[toaster]

Adding a faction benefit to the builder is easy enough for play effect benefits, but can be involved if it's a design effect. Turn off protection on the faction worksheet and write the benefit in the cell immediately after the faction name then reenable protection. The builder will now automatically add the benefit to the notes box. If you want to make a change to the way the builder actually builds ships for a particular faction you will need to know enough excel that you can figure out how to do it easier then I can explain it.

Robert

[sieffre]

As suggested, I'm shifting this discussion to the Factions and Ship Designs section. See you there.

[sieffre]

Our local gaming group is in the midst of converting from Full Thrust to Colonial Battlefleet. We consider these rules to be quite supperior to FT and the support is fantastic.

As I have a large collection of ADB's Kzin ships, I've been trying to figure out how to set up a Kzinti Faction.

Thus far, I'm leaning towards a 5/4/3/3/4/2 tech tree and using Battleriders instead of fighters. I'm accommadating them by leaving an appropriate amount of free mass in my psuedo-carrier ship design.

For Faction Benefits I am proposing:
> Heavier Gravity Home World - Add +1 turn permitted to Delta for free.
> Faster Reflexes - Add +1 FC for free.
> Blood Lust - If win Initiative Roll by three or less, must select Aggressive.

Constructive suggestions and comments are appreciated, especially as all of this is just in the pencil and eraser stage.

[toaster]

Blood lust is very aggressive, my origional Impestuous was win by 3 or less meaning you had to win the initiative roll comprehensivly to be allowed to chose. Doing it your way gives the Kzin player a very small window in which to choose and works against taking flagships. My suggestion would be to play with the margin of winning rather than reverse the condition (perhaps push it to 5 or less forces aggresive).
Other than that your definately getting the idea of race design and I'd like to know how the battleriders work for you.

Robert

[sieffre]

That was a typo on my part. I've gone back and corrected it.
Thanks!

[sieffre]

I'm still trying to work out Faction Benefits for the Kzin that don't require reworking the shipyard and that add some Kzin flavor without breaking the balance.

Because the ADB Kzin TAAS fighter is supposed to have (and is modeled with) 4 drones and two phasers, as suggested earlier I'm considering using DDPs instead. Here is my current thoughts on a Battlerider (with a nod to Honorverse) design:

Delta 3 = 6 (10) (max 6)
Shield 4 = 4 (4) (max 8).
Extra Armor 0 = 1 (0) (max 2)
P.Def 0 = 0 (0) (max 4)
Fire Control 1 = 1 (4)
Hard Point:
> Turbo Laser x 1 (F) S6/H4, (9). (or possibly 2 Heavy Lasers)
> ASGM Missile Launcher x 1 w/Mag of 2 S0/H10 (13) and
> AGSM Missile Launcher x 1 w/Mag of 2 S0/H10 (13)
Total = 53

Battleriders (DDPs) cannot warp. So instead of building carriers, ships can be designed with multiples of 53 mass of unallocated space allowing them to attach and transport that number of Battleriders. Leastwise, that is my concept at this point. As always, constructive comments are both solicitated and welcomed.

[hamilton]

The battleriders should still be subject to limits like hardpoints and hull size on the carriers. Max of 6 hardpoints, each hardpoint can only handle up to hull size in battleriders, single-member 'squadron' like a gunship.
For example, an Acropolis Refit has 413 tons remaining heading into Weapons on the shipyard. That means a max of 7 battleriders. Those 7 would have to be spread across hadrpoints with a max of 4 per hardpoint.

Should a ship have to spend some amount of mass GREATER than the size of the battlerider as support/mechlinks/fuel/ammo for the battlerider, or does the loss of tonnage for weapons make up for it? Obviously, the battlerider won't have 53 tons of weapons because of all the mass devoted to armor, delta, etc., but you do get the tactical benefit of multiple ships, etc. Undecided on this without some playtesting

Maybe a battlerider bay could have a Special of Bulky (opposite effect of Compact) - a ship can only have 1/2 size class rounded up, so a size 4 could only put 2 battleriders per hardpoint. And I think we need a max tonnage on the battleriders.
In addition, maybe a limit to durability on the carrier - because of the large bays and docking facilities, maybe only base armor allowed.

[sieffre]

Hamilton, your points seem reasonable but I am unsure how to implement them. Nor have I seen the 'compact' special rule... but hull size divided by two battleriders per hardpoint seems reasonable... thus a hull size 4 could carry one or two DDps per hardpoint. I agree that each battlerider should be a single ship 'squadron' with its own stand.

Keeping it simple, and maybe more practical, I can also see creating a mass limit per hardpoint for battleriders. Something along the lines of 12% of the host ship's total mass per battlerider and no more than two battleriders per hardpoint.

I'm not sure how I feel about limiting a naval architect's design options just because a ship is going to carry battleriders. It just doesn't seem reasonable.

[sieffre]

It seems we went off on a member-inspired tangent for a while but we are back using plain-Jane, unmodified Colonial Battlefleet. That gets me back on track trying to design a Kzin-like race. Here is what I have thus far:

Tech = 21: 5/2/3/5/3/3
Rationale:
> AM 5 gives Delta Cost - 20% which allows for the heavy gravity effect on maneuvering. Note that I am not using any of the AM weaponry at all.
> CW 2 allows for the ASGM (drones).
> FT 3 allows both strike and interceptor fighters. I'd like to try the Battleriders but haven't figured out how to add them to the shipyard.
> LW 5 allows for Phasers, Shields and max P Def.
> OC 3 maxes out ship size at 884, somewhat of a disadvantage in our games. If I were to add a 22nd point, it would be here.
> QM 3 allows for the heavy Kzin weapons, Disruptors, and scout role.

I'd like to add two racial additions:
> Faster Reflexes - Add +1 FC for free.
> Impestuous - win initiative by 3 or less must select aggressive.
But I'm not sure if that is too much or how to go about doing it.

Constructive comments and suggestions are gratefully appreciated.
Thanks,
Sieffre

[TheDreadnought]

The second one wouldn't appear on the data cards at all, except as a note so no problems there. The first one would be easy enough to correct by hand. I think Ken might have some logic built into the ship builder for that kind of thing, but you could correct by hand a lot faster I think. That's what I would do anyway.

I think the Impestuous should be 'must always select aggressive' and could maybe call it 'Scream and Leap'.

[bubbacleese]

I like the two race abilities +1 FC and Aggressive on condition of initiative to put the look and feel for the Kzinti race. Also the tech levels listed above.

These will fit in nicely with the standard races from Colonial Battlefleet which is what I am trying hard to put forth to the group that both sieffre and I game with.