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Post by Martin Lefebvre on Mar 3, 2013 16:53:17 GMT -5
I've just picked up the BBCV Jean Bart and Alsace from Shapeways ( www.shapeways.com/model/858569/1-2400-mn-bb-alsace-bbcv-jeanbart.html ) and I can't wait for them to be printed out. In the meantime, I'm going to start and sketch out some stats for the ship. As far as I know, the only other class of hybrid carrier-battleships was the Ise class, but it's not in the published books, and According to Jordan and Dumas's Frnech Battlehships (2009), the conversion would remove the 152mm guns aft and replace it with a 90mm thick armoured flight deck and hanger space for 40 planes internally and 14 on the flight deck. Furthermore, the overhaul would have increased it's AA armament by an addition of of 8 twin 130mm heavy AA guns. Proposed stats: BBCV Jean Bart (7+) Hull: 140 (35000 t) Speed: 8 Armour: 20 SAV: 7 AA / ASW: 17 / 0 Move Step: Battleship Shoot Step: Battleship Fire Control: RDR Primary Weapon: 8*380mm Secondary Weapons: 16 x 130mm Primary Data: Short: 19 Med: 38 Long: 57 Ext: 76 Arcs: 2 x [4] F / P / S Pen: 13 Dmg: 10 Secondary Data: 130mm Short: 10 Med: 20 Long: 30 Ext: 40 Arcs: 3 x [2] P 2 x [2] F 3 x [2] S Pen: 2 Dmg: 2 Secondary Data: 3.9"/45 Short: 7 Med: 14 Long: 21 Ext: 28 Arcs: 3 x [2] P 3 x [2] F Pen: 1 Dmg: 2 Aircraft: 4 (Recon), 4 Fighter, 3 DB, 3 TB, Flight Ops: 2
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brigman
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 135
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Post by brigman on Mar 4, 2013 2:05:51 GMT -5
Nice work Martin. I know Ise was able to launch a bomber strike but not recover one, although she might have been able to recover seaplanes (slowly) via crane. Was Jean-Bart designed to recover aircraft as well?
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Post by regiamarina on Mar 4, 2013 8:42:26 GMT -5
Looks interesting. I knocked up the Alsace stats a while ago if they'll help? I think they are on pg2 of the shipyard.
Hybrids are an interesting question in NT. I think from the layout the Alsace might have been able to launch and trap aircraft though not easily over the turrets.
Martin
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Post by Martin Lefebvre on Mar 4, 2013 14:05:09 GMT -5
Why launch over the turrets when she had a swivelling catapult on her aft? Anyways, the planes were amphibious so they would land near the mother-ship and get hoisted aboard. But that's for the Dunkerque and Alsace classes that had one catapult and the Richelieu class that had two.
As for the flight ops off of the BBCV, I think she would have been fine for launching and trapping so long as they were relatively light piston pounders or turboprops, but I'm assuming that jet would be right out.
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Post by regiamarina on Mar 4, 2013 19:29:40 GMT -5
I was thinking more WW2 where launching into the wind, so straight ahead, was more of a necessity. Didn't realise you were thinking more modern catapults and jets.
So it was a seaplane tender like the Chitose? Would have made recovering a flight quite laborious. Why did they start looking at this hybrid when they already had viable aircraft carriers?
Weirdly fascinating ship.
Martin
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Post by Martin Lefebvre on Mar 4, 2013 20:26:39 GMT -5
I think I wasn't clear here, but the traditional battleships (Dunkerque, Richelieu and Alsace) had a catapult for an amphibian recce plane.
On the other hand, Jordan and Dumas's reaserch shows that the plan to convert the Jean Bart into a hybrid was done after the end of the war, and was done in a semi-serious matter since they costed the project as expensively as possible because the French Navy desperately wanted another battleship. However, as far as I could tell, the hybrid was to carry a full air complement of 54 planes and thus I'm assuming they would be filled with surplussed USN aircraft just like the other French Navy flattops. (Mostly F6F Hellcats, F4U Corsair, SBD Dauntless, SB2C Helldivers, and TBF Avengers).
Just by going off of the model, I'm assuming that the deck portion is about 300 feet give or take about 25 feet. More than enough to launch a flight of planes (Hellcats need about 270 feet when combat loaded and a 25 knot headwind), but since there is less deck-space to queue up planes, it's ability to alphastrike would be hampered.
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Post by Martin Lefebvre on Mar 4, 2013 20:32:50 GMT -5
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Post by regiamarina on Mar 5, 2013 21:53:56 GMT -5
Yeah I think the Avenger would have been a fraction long. From the looks of the model the deck would have been slightly under half the ship which was around 820 feet so I don't think avengers would have had enough room to take off safely.
Martin
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Post by Martin Lefebvre on Mar 6, 2013 0:26:28 GMT -5
The Avenger would still be able to launch in bomber configuration since that only need 340 feet or as a light scout (262 feet), but there are other planes that can accomplish those mission better while taking up less deck-space.
On the other hand, whilst I have not sat down and done the math, my back of the envelope calculations are telling me that if we assume that the deck is exactly 400 feet long, the Avenger could launch with one torpedo if the Bart was at flank speed (32 knots) and is sailing into a light breeze. But I think that this falls into the same category as landing a C-130 on the USS Forestall - doable, but not an experience a pilot wants to repeat unnecessarily.
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Post by regiamarina on Mar 6, 2013 20:27:21 GMT -5
About 60 feet doesn't seem like a lot of safety room when a mishap will put you face first with a bomb and a full fuel tank into the roof of B turret. Very idiosyncraticly French design though. They never like doing what is generally accepted and tend to like going their own way, whether the innovations work or not. It does make a nice sleek looking ship though. Martin
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Post by Martin Lefebvre on Mar 14, 2013 12:59:29 GMT -5
True, but I'm quite sure that the planes would be taking off with the bomb unarmed (and thus only vulnerable to cook-off, not shock) and the roof of B turret was armoured by 130mm of steel.
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Post by regiamarina on Mar 14, 2013 23:03:17 GMT -5
Of course the ordnance wouldn't be armed but cooking fuel still doesn't make it any safer, look at USS Forrestal.
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Post by Martin Lefebvre on Mar 15, 2013 10:33:44 GMT -5
True, but I think that we've been operating under the faulty assumption that the Bart's planes would be taking off under it's own power. It's quite conceivable that the ship would have been given CATOBAR technology that was already on the drawing board for the Clemenceau-class.
In fact I just got the models yesterday and the ships do have a catapult on the flight deck, but I don't want to use this as my main argument in favour of my position since the track could simply be artistic licence.
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