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Post by lordhawkins on Jul 9, 2010 7:37:51 GMT -5
It seems like I've seen more than one comment about smaller ships like Destroyers being around just as cannon fodder and not having much of a role to play.
So...how are you using them?...what are you putting on them?
For me, I loaded up on PD and Delta and used them to shoot down incoming missiles. Early playtests showed me how deadly missiles could be so I wanted something better than spending valuable points from cap ships to "possibly" shoot missiles down itself.
The end result was my cap ships making it to shooting range at pretty much full health. Making the Destoryer hugely valuable and a perfect escort.
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unclejoe
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 199
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 9, 2010 8:26:37 GMT -5
I usually 'purpose build' DDs. Some will be used as you say above. Others I try to use as 'flankers' to get behind the enemy and attack the weaker shields with heavier weapons.
DDs can't really hurt much and they shatter if something big fires at them, but they present good hull point/tonnage ratio. So having a few of them around to draw fire and threaten weak spots helps IMO.
They arent a true 'threat' to really large ships, but they can harass anything smaller than size 4-5 IMO.
On the defense role, they can be used to ECM missiles (as above) or to 'take one for the team' if missiles are stacked up.
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Post by warchariot on Jul 9, 2010 12:59:56 GMT -5
"For me, I loaded up on PD and Delta and used them to shoot down incoming missiles. Early playtests showed me how deadly missiles could be so I wanted something better than spending valuable points from cap ships to "possibly" shoot missiles down itself."
What is a lot of P Def and Delta? Tech levels keep some of this down, so what is the right amount for an escort?
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Post by lordhawkins on Jul 9, 2010 14:52:16 GMT -5
I believe I did around 3 PD and 4 Delta and then made the ship RDF. Did my games at full tech levels.
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unclejoe
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 199
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 9, 2010 14:54:41 GMT -5
Once you have RDF, do you really need 4 Delta? We found that RDFs can just stay at relatively high speeds and if they need to go more slowly they can dance around in circle to 'bleed off' speed.
Our first RDFs had 3+ speed, but we've seen less need for anything more than 2 as we've become more skilled at the maneuver.
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Post by lordhawkins on Jul 9, 2010 15:15:08 GMT -5
With the way missiles move and the turning rules (which may have changed ) all that delta was useful for slamming on the breaks or running up to catch them. These ships carried very little way in weapons...maybe only one weapon if I remember. You know...just in case they lived long enough to fire it in close range.
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unclejoe
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 199
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 9, 2010 15:30:42 GMT -5
Hmm, yeah, it's quite possible that the missle rules have changed. So far, we havent had a lot of fatalities from long ranged missile fire. Astute players can dodge their current mobility fairly well (although it does channel movement).
At long range, I feel like the role of missiles is more harassment than decision. They are too expensive to waste on a few potential hits so you can't saturate the area with them unless you can more or less guarantee kills. I think they provide a very useful 'sparring' tool and help you win the battle for position, but there are enough ways to blunt their effectiveness to keep them getting too many kills.
Perhaps with the 12 point movement they'd be more deadly at range?
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kashre
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by kashre on Jul 9, 2010 16:31:04 GMT -5
Judging from the charts I saw they are defintely more deadly at range with 12 point movement.... they have a narrower movement cone, but they can hit almost every hex in that cone iirc. High delta would be good for dodging missiles in that case I think.
As for destroyers... because we use 6 point movement, we very seldom have a lot of long range missile fire. In fact my main oponent likes to wait until she's right on top of me to guarantee hits. Because of that, my limited number of light ships I'm allowed is almost always taken up with CLS rather than destroyers.
I usually only get a destroyer if I have "remainder" points that cant afford a CLS. And I can only do RDF because of my factions tech limits.
As for how I use it, pretty much I use it to run aroun ECMing missiles, and in a pinch tuck it in next to a cap ship to absorb some missiles after I start loosing screens. Shooting at ships is an afterthought.
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Post by warchariot on Jul 9, 2010 17:55:42 GMT -5
" So far, we havent had a lot of fatalities from long ranged missile fire. Astute players can dodge their current mobility fairly well (although it does channel movement). " Long range missile fire is amazingly good. If they don't get you going in, they come back around to hit you from behind. You don't waste the cost, because they are there until you destory them or they hit something. They do channel movement, as you say, which means you can set up fields of fire to chew things up that come down those lanes.
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Post by warchariot on Jul 9, 2010 17:58:13 GMT -5
I believe I did around 3 PD and 4 Delta and then made the ship RDF. Did my games at full tech levels. One thing we have noticed is the speed of ships is not very high. The max rule and the low Delta on most of our ships keeps things slower. a Delta of 4 seems a bit high, unless like you say, you need to slam on the brakes or move away fast. We'll have to try the quicker speed and see what is what.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jul 9, 2010 23:24:43 GMT -5
At long range, I feel like the role of missiles is more harassment than decision. They are too expensive to waste on a few potential hits so you can't saturate the area with them unless you can more or less guarantee kills. I think they provide a very useful 'sparring' tool and help you win the battle for position, but there are enough ways to blunt their effectiveness to keep them getting too many kills. Yeah, Hawkins - Unclejoe has yet to witness first hand the effect of a long range saturation missile engagement conducted by a skilled player - so he hasn't seen just how nasty they can get and therefore doesn't really see how amazingly helpful your ECM DDs can be at keeping your fleet in one piece.
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unclejoe
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 199
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 10, 2010 0:37:37 GMT -5
Oh I definitely see what ECM DDs can do to a missile strike. But I'm just not sure you need Delta of 4 for that role. Were you playing with max speeds?
Also, what scale of battles are y'all talking about here? We've now played a few 1800-2000 pointers and havent seen as much missile carnage as apparently y'all have. What size map are your battles on? We've been playing pretty much according to the scenarios and it seems very hard to hold the range unless you are a pure missile fleet and 'running' from the enemy (which is not practical in many of the scenarios which require you to defend something).
How many missiles are considering to be 'saturation'?
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jul 10, 2010 9:53:41 GMT -5
Well a good start is to multiply the number of enemy ships by 3. So if you're up against a 5 ship fleet, having a throw-weight of 12 - 15 missiles a turn is a fairly good number. 2 -3 missiles per stack. You should have deep enough magazines to maintain that almost all the way into engagement range.
Heavy cruisers make ideal missile boats. You can go light on the defense for more magazine space since they aren't intended to play a major role in the main engagement.
Then of course there is the skill factor. The trick with missiles is you're aiming the missiles where the enemy is GOING to be. So if you are pointing the missiles in the direction of the enemy where they are at the time the missiles launch, then yes, you're going to find it hard to maneuver into hits because your targeting assumptions are 3 -4 turns old by the time the missiles get there.
Pointing them where the enemy will be, however, causes your opponent to maneuver accordingly, and you adjust, and so forth - hence the effectiveness of missile salvoes for area denial which you should be able to exploit to crush your opponent in detail.
Finally, there is having enough engagement room to allow for a protracted missile engagement. Try play end to end, or corner to corner on a 6x4 hex mat where you're looking at 3 -5 turns before the possibility of getting into direct fire range. If the enemy is closing to fast, slow your advance. You don't have to "run way" but just give your missiles enough time to work their magic &/or force him out of position.
Finally, when you start getting in close, they forced maneuver properties become really powerful. If you put a missile stack directly in the path of where he wants to go, he either doesn't get to go there, or he eats a missile stack.
All your missiles should be targeting only 1-2 ships. Just because you can hit another ship, doesn't mean that you should. Trying to kill your opponent's screen takes too long and too many missiles maneuver past them and just allow him to have the extra PD die or two. Getting a feel for when to engage targets of opportunity, and when not to takes practice.
Finally, don't expect to vaporize his fleet before he ever gets into range - you're just wearing him down so your batteline can crush his.
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unclejoe
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 199
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 10, 2010 11:38:41 GMT -5
I think part of what is mitigating missile effectness with our group is the current obsession with RDF ships. They can pretty much dance around missiles with no issue if you are at all careful. Also, I guess we tend towards the smaller end of ships (CAs/BCs form the bulk with the CLs and DDs filling out the points - we havent played with a lot of BBs - too many eggs in one basket considering the lethality of some of the upper end weapons).
A few other questions:
What are your expected results from stacks of 2-3 missiles? 2PD seems about standard for us with 3 on larger ships and maybe an extra die or so from nearby Screens. So the odds of a stack that small even scoring a hit on a target it does find isnt all that great. Are you looking to just maybe do a lucky crit here and there?
And the tonnage you are talking about to put 12-15 missiles in the air for 2-3 turns is pretty immense. So if you're going to make that much of an investment you NEED to get some pretty decisive results or else I would expect you to be hosed in the DF engagement.
I'm sure there will be times when you catch the enemy flat-footed without enough escort with a missile-heavy fleet and cause mass carnage, but there is equal risk you run into an mostly RDF fleet or a fleet with lots of PD or a handful of Screens and/or PD DDs anad you'll be equally screwed. This is why I'm so looking forward to the campaign system so fleets wont be quite so one-off.
For my money, the 'safest' route is the massed DF with support. FIghters are neat and and missiles can be fun, but at the end of the day, the lasers/disruptors/ballistics are your most reliable way to kill any enemy. There is simply nothing the enemy can do to mitigate them (short of running away).
Now that said, all of the other elements play a part in helping YOUR DF fleet beat theirs and I think that's what makes this game refreshing. It's much harder to load up on a 'specialist' weapon and win with ease against a balanced force (a problem that most other systems seem to have).
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jul 10, 2010 11:54:39 GMT -5
Well, yeah, if you're up against a mostly RDF fleet then missiles are going to have dramatically reduced effectiveness. But those missiles continue to fly around until destroyed remember. As far as missile stack effectiveness. .. you should be able to get 1 - 2 hits out of a stack of 3. You should be able to hit a ship with a couple stacks at a time which means 4 - 5 hits (I'm assuming they're only going have a P DEF of about 3). So, let's say 4 hits out of 6, assuming nothing penetrates and nothing criticals, you're still looking at 20 points of hull damage. But it's true, if you guys are mostly sticking to the small and maneuverable ships, the ability to deliver coordinated missile strikes on target drops dramatically. . . but then the damage from each missile that does get through increases dramatically. So I'm interested in this RDF obsession. Have you tried taking a big bruiser BBB with AV 10 and mounting a slew of heavy rail guns in turrets. Appropriate support ships to protect it and perhaps a battlecruiser tricked out with shield-strippers? Seems like if you're up against fleets topping out at AV 8, they'd have a tough time dealing with that. I have no idea how it would work out, but I know it's something I would try. Oh. . . and you are playing the RDF construction correctly now, right? LOL! I double checked and it clearly says in the rules "You MUST purchase a point of delta at this step."
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unclejoe
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 199
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 10, 2010 12:30:34 GMT -5
Lol, yep, that was clarified in the other thread. It certainly makes RDF a bit LESS attractive, but I think we are mostly just drawn to smaller, less mass-intensive ships. I amply demonstrated how quickly a large BBs can be annihilated by small BCs with some Phazors and SD-Torps. I think it's the SD Torps that make the larger BBs not seem so attractive. The Torps dont care what armor you have and Phazors are so efficent at stripping shields that you WILL take a crapload of crits and prolly be combat ineffective in a single round vs a handful of SDs. Sure the BCs dont have a lot of reloads (one class didnt even carry reloads - just 4 launchers and 4 torps), but if you lose a 900 ton BB before it can even fire (game over), it kind of seems risky to bring them out again (when playing races that have access to SD torps anyways. ). The other way a large BB has been dealt with is just hull damaging it down. In fact, that was part of what tipped us on how nasty those Gatling ACs were at 4 Hull Damage. Batteries of 20 or so on a small BC can almost guarantee scrapping off 40 hull points(!) after you use lasers/phasers to strip the shields off. And those BCs can be small and efficient because Gatling ACs were so mass efficient per hull damage. Sure the BCs shatter under the fire of the BB, but enough Gatlings (and other weapons mind you) focusing on the AV10 BB just took the hull points down mighty quickly. We havent tried that again since the AC fix though, so I would wager that that would require some more work to take out. Now the ACs only do 1 damage each to AV6+ so they are far far less efficient as BB killers. But honestly I think it's just group-think for us. We rarely bring out the Yamato or Iowa early in naval games (same principle...to many eggs in one basket). Eventually they'll make their way onto the table again I'm sure. There is a 'meta' to ship design when playing one-offs and they are a part of that meta. Also keep in mind that we are using limited tech most of the time and an AV10 BB with Heavy Rail guns takes up 10 of your 'tech slots'. So far, we've played with 15 and 20. At 15, that doesnt leave much else for your tech. At 20, it's viable, but then again you're much much more likely to run into a pile of SD Torps which wreck the BB to little gain.
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Post by warchariot on Jul 11, 2010 10:07:19 GMT -5
Used torp DD for the first time, worked as expected and lived to tell about it. If you really want to learn how to use missiles, take a missile fleet. Yes, a fleet with no other weapons but missiles and maybe some other short (d6) range attack weapons, but make missiles the prime weapon system. You want to fight someone who has the big kill weapons with the 10-15 hex range. Now start about 35-40 hexes away. You get very good after a game or two of getting very dead.
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unclejoe
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 199
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Post by unclejoe on Jul 11, 2010 10:33:06 GMT -5
35 to 40 hexes is impractical for us, and besides it feels like 'cheating' to more than double the scenario area listed in the book and then bring massed missiles.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jul 11, 2010 10:49:15 GMT -5
The scenario area shown in the book was what we could easily work with in making diagrams and intended only to provide a visual reference. You shouldn't interpret the hex dimensions of the total play area literally. Those areas are much smaller than what we used in creating the scenarios.
We frequently played end to end or corner to corner on a 6x4 space mat marked in 1.5" hexes.
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kashre
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by kashre on Jul 11, 2010 13:39:54 GMT -5
35 to 40 hexes is impractical for us, and besides it feels like 'cheating' to more than double the scenario area listed in the book and then bring massed missiles. Understandable if it's impractical, but I don't think it's "cheating". The very small, non-floating maps in the scenarios actually seem pretty unrealistic to me. And they generally only give heavy missile users 1 turn for ranges volleys before the other sides all up in their grill. Though they are useful to keep the length of a game manageable and they let us get to the good stuff (range 4! Everything blows up!) faster.
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