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Post by afilter on Oct 20, 2010 12:41:30 GMT -5
This is a scenario I have wanted to play/develop for along time based on the IJN "Kantai Kessen" war plan had Pearl Harbor not happened. With the NT rules I think it would be very playable.
Situation:
April 12, 1942 – Address of Admiral Nagumo to officers of the First Strike Force, on the eve of battle “I know many of you have privately questioned Admiral Yamamoto’s daring gambit. Giving up the element of surprise and declining the opportunity to launch a preemptory attack was contrary to the doctrines we have followed since the Battle of Port Arthur in 1904, and counter to the instincts of many of us. But Yamamoto understands the United States, and he has argued persuasively against unnecessarily provoking the American people. So instead of striking, we issued the Articles of Blockade on December 7, 1941. In them, as you know, the War Cabinet declared our intention to blockade the Philippine Islands, Guam and Wake Island in response to the U.S. oil embargo. But our diplomats sweetened the ultimatum with soothing words – stressing the regret with which we took this action, our desire to avert war and rebuild relations with the U.S., our recognition of U.S. interests in the Western Hemisphere, and our hope that our Axis partners would refrain from conflict with America. Of course, the U.S. government declared our blockade illegal and announced their intent to challenge it. But we also know from their “free press” that there is widespread dissension in America as to the wisdom of courting war with us to defend China and Indo-China. As Yamamoto predicted, the U.S. Pacific Fleet has gathered and sortied to try to break our blockade, either through intimidation or force. Clearly they are ill-prepared for the conflict ahead. Their doctrines for the use of concentrated naval airpower are inferior to ours and we expect to have mastery of the skies. And they have not developed the logistical train necessary to sustain operations in the Pacific if we can deny them use of their base at Manila. Now it is time for Kantai Kessen – the decisive battle. We hope to provoke the U.S. into firing the first shot, but even if they don’t we are ready to take measures in our own hands – in the heat of battle it will be easy to blame America for aggression. Regardless we will use our submarines and airpower to weaken the Americans, and then sweep up the survivors with masterful torpedo attacks and the unstoppable power of our battleships. With their navy in ruins, blood on their own hands, and dissension among their citizens, America will long for peace. We will be in a position to dictate settlement terms which assure us our rightful place of leadership throughout East Asia and our rightful status as a leading world power.”
Just need your thoughts on the OoB and any scenario specific rules.
Should Air and Subs be part of the scenario or left out?
This could be one massive engagement or broken down into several smaller actions ending with a Battleship brawl.
The IJN plan basically involved wearing the USN fleet down as it made it's way through the Mariannas with land based air, subs, and night torpedo attacks and then destroy the diminished USN fleet with the big guns of the IJN Battle line. All the Air, and subs could be fought out with the NT rules or casualties could be pre-determined as part of each scenario OoB to keep it simple.
Thoughts?
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Post by TheDreadnought on Oct 20, 2010 14:01:33 GMT -5
This would be awesome!
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Post by warchariot on Oct 20, 2010 18:59:22 GMT -5
Wow, I would like to see this as a series of 4-5 battles. The first would be a convoy breaking through, maybe a DD, CL battle where it is determined who firers the first shot of the war. Next, maybe an end run by US forces trying to cut the IJN supply lines. Or enter the British from behind to help the US. On to a night action to sneak in or out of Pearl. Finally, the big Jutland style battle. ;D
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Post by afilter on Oct 20, 2010 19:55:54 GMT -5
Anyone have any ideas for OoB? Obviously anything will work since it is a "what if", but historical formations would be even better.
Anyone own a copy of Avlanche press War Plan Orange?
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on Oct 20, 2010 21:15:25 GMT -5
Yes, I own a copy of War Plan Orange. What info. are you looking for?
You will also want to be familiar with the activities the IJN had planned for the decisive battle. It would be preceded by a night battle using the Kongo class BC's to punch through the USN cruiser screen to allow the Myoko class CA's, Kitakami class CL's, and several divisions of the latest DD's (Yugumo, Kagero, Asashio) to launch their 'Long Lance' torpedoes at the USN BB's. Then the next day the main IJN battleline would be deployed against the USN survivors from the night battle.
This Kantai Kessen setup could be developed into many different scenarios and battles.
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Post by afilter on Oct 20, 2010 21:52:25 GMT -5
Shigure,
Plan Orange is one of the few I do not have....just wondering if it has any OoB or scenario ideas?
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on Oct 20, 2010 23:06:06 GMT -5
It has been a while since I read it. I don't remember any specific OOB with ship names. However, I do remember seeing at least one fleet formation that had specific ship types. I could scan that and post it when I get home tomorrow night from business travel. Based upon the ships available to the USN and in the Pacific, I believe it would be easy to develop an OOB for the USN fairly easily.
The scenarios could be developed depending upon which version of Plan Orange you are interested in. The plan was developed over several years by different personnel. The USN planners had some ideas that were not supported by the Army. The USN also did not work at developing its fleet train until very late into the 1930s. This would have adversely affected the mobility of the fleet until sufficient civilian vessels could be requistioned and fitted out.
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on Oct 21, 2010 23:43:40 GMT -5
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Bluebear
Commander
He who laughs
Posts: 405
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Post by Bluebear on Oct 22, 2010 1:25:51 GMT -5
For those of us who are not really knowledgeable about WWII, just what is "Plan Orange"?
-- Jeff
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Post by afilter on Oct 22, 2010 7:49:32 GMT -5
For those of us who are not really knowledgeable about WWII, just what is "Plan Orange"? -- Jeff The actual Plan Orange was the proposed U.S. war plan for war against Japan. The USN had developed a serries of War Plans post WWI to war game and plan for potential war with many nations. some were more serious than other. Plan Orange-Japan Plan Black-Germany Plan Gold-France Plan Red-Britain Plan Scarlet-Canada Avalanche Press came out with a serries of WWI/WWII games based on these plans. Plan Orange was one of the more popular ones and is Out of Print. If you are interested in very historically based what if and real battle games I encourage you to check out the entire naval wargame serries by Avalanche press. www.avalanchepress.com/Great scenarios and awesome maps. HTH,
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on Oct 22, 2010 7:50:22 GMT -5
Very good question for those not familiar with WWII. The attached Wikipedia link gives an overview on War Plan Orange. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_OrangeWar Plan Orange was just one part of the colored war plans that culminated in Rainbow 5 that was developed just before the entry of the US in WWII. This Wikipedia link gives info. on the color coded war plans. Some interesting info. here and probably some good fodder for some more what-if scenarios and campaigns. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_color-coded_war_plans
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Post by fluorophil on Oct 22, 2010 14:05:25 GMT -5
I agree with The Dreadnaught - Oh Hell Yeah! The ideas above would be a very fertile base for "what if" scenarios IMHO...
Just thinking out loud...along the same lines in the Atlantic (roughly), what would be the feasability of having a Z Plan German fleet breaking out?? Just putting it into the discussion...
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shigure
Commander
IJN Shigure
Posts: 356
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Post by shigure on Oct 23, 2010 22:19:02 GMT -5
War Plan Orange, Chapter 25 Fleet Battle in the Central Pacific 1941 info. Initial setup upon declaration of war: Task Force 7 consisted of 32 mostly, modern submarines and these would be deployed to the Yokohama, Bungo, & Kii channels and exits to the Sea of Japan. Here they would report on IJN (Orange) ship movements and damage important IJN units. (Transit time was to be around 8 days).
The next step of the plan used long range seaplanes from Wake to search for incoming IJN units and give the fleet notice of their approach.
The heavy cruisers from TF-3 (4 CA's) were to head to the eastern Pacific and eliminate any possible raiders they encounted. If sufficient warning could be given before the declaration of war, the cruisers were to sail early and possibly head for the Ryukyus to intercept convoys in this area.
Once all this was in place the idea was to use the three CV's (Lexington, Saratoga, & Enterprise) of TF-2 with 12 escort vessels to make an reconnaissance raid on the Marshall Islands. It was expected this would bring the Combined Fleet out of home waters to counter the threat.
After the recon raid the TF-2 CV's would retreat to a pre-determined point (Point Tare) and join up with the rest of the fleet coming out of PH and the TF-3 CA's having completed their sweeps of the Eastern Pacific.
With pictures from the recon raid, targets in the Marshalls would be attacked by the TF-2 CV's escorted by 36 fast warships. Adm. Stark was not a big fan of the second attack on the Marshalls as he expected the IJN to be much better prepared for the second incursion.
As TF-2 CV's headed for the Marshalls, Adm. Kimmel planned to take his BB's out in two waves. In the first the Pennsylvania, Nevada, and Arizona and two DD's (TF-2S) would arrive at Point Tare (outside of IJN air range) and act as a support group for TF-2 CV's to fall back on in case they were being harassed by IJN DD's and cruisers during their retirement phase.
Then about 5 days later the remaining 6 BB's and 18 escorts (TF-1) were to follow and meet the rest of the fleet at Point Tare. At this point TF-2S and TF-1 would have been combined into TF-1. Once this was done, the fleet would have been refueled by oilers and evidently some of the oilers escorts would have been added to TF-2 and TF-1. The reason I surmise this is because TF-2 now shows the 3 CV's with 33 escorts and TF-1 with 9 BB's and 22 escorts including CL's and DD's.
When TF-2 makes for the Northern Marshalls for its second raid, TF-1 takes up a postion well to the northwest of Point Tare, but within range of USN search aircraft. After the second raid TF-2 would have headed north to join up with TF-1. The USN acknowledged their shortcomings in nightfighting and this position would allow land based long range recon aircraft to warn of any incoming IJN fleet.
The USN expected the IJN to know thru spies and possibly their own subs that the Pacific Fleet had left Oahu. It was expected the IJN would refuel at Truk and both fleets would battle it out near Wake Island. The IJN outnumbered the USN in carriers by ten to three and two to one in aircraft. One can expect that at least the IJN would have used the 6 CV's that attacked PH. That is pretty much Adm. Kimmel's plan in the book.
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Post by warchariot on Oct 24, 2010 10:47:27 GMT -5
"The heavy cruisers from TF-3 (4 CA's) were to head to the eastern Pacific and eliminate any possible raiders they encounted. If sufficient warning could be given before the declaration of war, the cruisers were to sail early and possibly head for the Ryukyus to intercept convoys in this area."
"Once all this was in place the idea was to use the three CV's (Lexington, Saratoga, & Enterprise) of TF-2 with 12 escort vessels to make an reconnaissance raid on the Marshall Islands. It was expected this would bring the Combined Fleet out of home waters to counter the threat."
So here are a couple of games right here. The CA's could have been out already and TF-2 could have deployed just before the blockaid.
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theoz
Lieutenant
Armored and Ready!
Posts: 54
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Post by theoz on Oct 24, 2010 16:22:02 GMT -5
If you're looking to make up scenarios as historically accurate as possible, you need these two books:
"War Plan Orange" by Edward Miller, which gives you the evolution of plans for war from the US side, from 1904 up to 1941.
"Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie, which (among other things) gives the Japanese view of potential Pacific wars, including some tricky things like underwater hits from BB main guns and the use of mini-subs in fleet battles.
Both are excellent reads (I have them both) and give you a lot of detail for "what-if" scenarios.
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Post by warchariot on Oct 24, 2010 16:57:05 GMT -5
Great tip, maybe Oz could you with this?
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Post by fluorophil on Oct 25, 2010 12:32:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads-up Oz. Have been looking at both of these books for a while, now they are in my Amazon wish list...
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Post by warchariot on Oct 25, 2010 18:03:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads-up Oz. Have been looking at both of these books for a while, now they are in my Amazon wish list... Christmas is coming...
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Post by cjcafiero on Apr 13, 2011 18:40:54 GMT -5
You may wish to glance at my scenario for Avalanche Press' "Midway", concerning the implementation of Admiral Kimmel's actual war plan, executed in alternate history where the Japanese chose not to go with the Pearl Harbor attack; www.avalanchepress.com/kimmels_war_plan.php
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Post by afilter on Apr 13, 2011 20:27:37 GMT -5
You may wish to glance at my scenario for Avalanche Press' "Midway", concerning the implementation of Admiral Kimmel's actual war plan, executed in alternate history where the Japanese chose not to go with the Pearl Harbor attack; www.avalanchepress.com/kimmels_war_plan.phpNice, I have seen these before as I am a big AP fan. I own most of the box games and expansions, but have yet to play. I have mostly been collecting to use the maps and scenarios for Miniature campaigns.
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