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Post by TheDreadnought on Jun 17, 2010 8:45:05 GMT -5
OK, as you have no doubt seen, plastered all over our ad copy is the claim that Colonial Battlefleet has more tactical depth with other systems. It's not a clever marketing ploy. . . we really mean it. Colonial Battlefleet's rules are deceptively simple. We really could have stolen Othello's slogan "Minutes to learn, a lifetime to master." It's true that we designed the system so that anybody could be up and running and having a blast with their very first game. However, being a GOOD Colonial Battlefleet admiral is an acquired skill that takes practice. Fortunately, even a beginner will have tons of fun with the game, but after you've played a while you will start to see the subtleties built into the rules that are what make Colonial Battlefleet a constantly challenging game that will keep you coming back over and over - long after other systems have lost their charm. So last night it occurred to me, this would be a great place for people to come in to discuss their views on mastering successful tactics in Colonial Battlefleet. Since it was my idea, I thought I should step up and be the first to kick off the discussions by talking a little about guided missiles. Guided missiles are THE principle first strike weapon in Colonial Battlfleet. Since they have effectively unlimited range, they offer the change for stand-off bombardment to weaken your opponent before he ever gets into range with his direct fire weapons. They inflict huge damage when they hit, and their shield penetrators alloow them to skip right through the enemy's shields! That's right, they are an unlimited range weapon, that hits hard and can't be stopped by shields - it doesn't get much better than that. People playing Colonial Battlefleet for the first time will generally just wait to get in close to where its much easier to hit with guided missiles. But once you've seen guided missiles in the hands of a Colonial Battlefleet master, it will forever change the way you look at these weapons - and also the way you look at point defense!
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jun 17, 2010 9:21:45 GMT -5
So how do you conduct successful long range missile strikes against your opponent? Well there are a few key points to consider:
Saturate the Target The major defense against missiles is the target's point defense systems. However, point defense dice are expensive, and not as sexy to the inexperienced player as squeezing on that extra heavy rail gun. But point defense can only engage so many inbound threats at the same time. That means that if you're hitting the target with more missiles at the same time than the target has point defense dice, that some of them can slip through completely unengaged - that's right the only thing left between you and your target will be his ship's armor - and with the big penetration dice on guided missiles, you will shred that like tissue paper.
Avoid Commitment Issues If you're going to saturate the target's defenses you're going to have to hit him with multiple missiles at the same time. That means you're going to have to have LOTS of missiles on the table at once. Which means you need ships with deep magazines and lots of missile launchers - and then you need to burn through those magazines as fast as you possibly can. Once you get in close, the kinetic kill weapons are king, so your guided missile magazines should be empty by the time you get there.
Try building a ship with two hard points devoted to missile launchers. Stick three launchers on each hard point, and give each hard point a magazine of 12 ASGMs. That means each turn that ship is going to be spitting out 6 ASGMs (preferably in 2 stacks of 3) and in four turns, its magazines are going to be dry. Now take two of those ships and see how you can fill the tabletop with missiles. Throw a couple launchers on your battleline ships to give them something to do while they are closing the range, and suddenly you will have a torrent of ASGMs bearing down on your opponent.
Unless your opponent has maxed out his PD and has an accompanying cruiser screen, if you successfully hit a target with 2 of those stacks at the same time, the second stack will be completely unengaged by point defense. So if we make the unrealistic assumption that the ENTIRE first stack is successfully stopped by PD, you're still going to hit your target with guaranteed damage of 15 - 30 points with a high penetration weapon and the potential for three criticals. In a game where the biggest battleship has only 110 hull points, that is a LOT of damage.
So half the challenge is just getting your fleet's misile throw-weight high enough to get those coveted "two stack" hits.
The Art of Persuasion The next challenge is understanding how to maneuver your missiles. Keep in mind, your opponent's objective will generally be to close the range with his battleline while keeping his softer ships back in support or on the edges of your formation.
That means that if your sending missile stacks down the approaches between your ships and his battleline, he has the choice of just plowing through them and eating the damage, or maneuvering to avoid them but delaying his battleline's ability to engage. Either way, you win. So when you're maneuvering guided missiles, you don't necessarily want to send them directly toward the target. You want to maneuver stacks of missiles to where your opponent is going to want to be in a couple turns when the stacks get there - forcing him to make that difficult decision.
If you have carriers or RDF forces in your fleet, you can exploit any delay he gives you to shred his lighter forces with your faster and more maneuverable units. By the time his big slow battline is able to bring you to grips, he's going to be facing your whole fleet with just those ships - because the rest of his is gone. Best of all, right around that time the missiles he "avoided" will be coming around for a second pass - dramatically increasing the damge inflicted just as he is starting to engage your battleline. Bad news for him, good news for you.
If your opponent chooses to just plow right through the missile stacks and eat the (substantial) damage, when he reaches your battleline, he's going to have been bled some already, and will be much easier meat for your battline and defender ships to chew up and spit out.
So missiles are a highly effective weapon both from an area denial perspective as well as first-strike capability. You can use them to force your opponent to maneuver in the ways you want him to - and punish him severely if he doesn't.
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theoz
Lieutenant
Armored and Ready!
Posts: 54
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Post by theoz on Jun 17, 2010 18:03:21 GMT -5
One thing to consider is that with CB missile movement rules, there are hexes you can't hit from a missile's location at the start of the missile movement phase, and the number and placement of those "unhittable" hexes changes quite a bit if you're using the optional rule for 12-point movement. I've made some graphics to show what I mean. If you're using the standard rules, your missiles "terminal ballistics" look like this: home.comcast.net/~steveosmanski/CB_60.bmpYour missile can reach 47 different hexes, but there are 54 other hexes within a range of 8 from the missile's starting hex that you cannot hit. Playing with the optional 12-point movement rules, it depends on whether the missile starts facing a hexside or a hexpoint. Facing a hexside, the "terminal ballistics" look like this: home.comcast.net/~steveosmanski/CB12SIDE.bmpThe missile can get to 48 hexes, and only misses 8. Lastly, if the missile starts facing a hexpoint, the "terminal ballistics" look like this: home.comcast.net/~steveosmanski/CB12PT.bmpAgain, you can hit 48 hexes, and you miss 8 hexes. This might make you think that missile shooters always want 12-point movement, but notice the much narrower target area that 12-point missiles have, thanks to their restriction to only 2 (30 degree) facing changes during their movement. Stardard rule missiles have a much better "second-attack" potential because they can turn around faster. OTOH, if you can't fly your missiles into the target the first time, maybe you shouldn't build missile-heavy fleets in the first place. These diagrams might also be useful for planning the positions of escorts, especially for thinking about positioning ships to use ECM against missiles.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jun 17, 2010 20:44:35 GMT -5
LOL! Those are awesome! That's one thing I love about writing games. No matter how much time you spend thinking about it. . . once its out there somebody always goes just a little bit further!
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Post by Jester on Jun 18, 2010 7:46:46 GMT -5
Wow, keep it coming. Im really enjoying this thread...hope to see more like it soon. Theoz: those diagrams are great...especially in light of the game I just played....I swear, my targets were ALWAYS in those ^%$&* grey boxes! 3 turns of missiles chasing those two cruisers...hehe. IM sure it had nothing to do with my experience level of the commander tho As a previous poster mentioned, I may try 6 point movement for ships but 12 point for missiles for the next game.
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theoz
Lieutenant
Armored and Ready!
Posts: 54
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Post by theoz on Jun 18, 2010 10:40:59 GMT -5
More missile thoughts. If you're going to build a ship devoted to missile combat, give it the RDF role. You get two benefits: she's more manuverable which helps you keep the distance open (you can run away and fire missiles at the same time since missiles have a 360 degree firing arc; "Kaufman Retrograde," anyone?) and you don't have to pay for one point of Delta, which gives more space for magazines. The ideal backup weapon for missile ships is the Gatling Laser: you can pack twice as many on a hardpoint, you don't need FC points to fire them, and you can use them against fighters. Here's a possible missile-heavy ship. She has more throw-weight per turn but only two turns of missiles in her magazines. She is armed and armored enough to follow up her missiles.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jun 18, 2010 10:53:29 GMT -5
Yeah, she does have a lot of throw-weight. But those are pretty shallow magazines as you point out.
I'd envision this design serving as cruiser screen killer with first-strike capability as the fleets close, rather than a full on missile fire support ship.
Have you considered a battlecruiser variant? Keep the missile armament the same, but with deeper magazines, and upgrade the non-missile weaponry to enhance her effectiveness once she gets in close.
Or even better, upgrade all the way to a size 4 BCR. Drop the missiles to 2 hardpoints of 4 launchers each. You can then fire spreads in 2 stacks of 4, or 4 stacks of 2. That would also allow you to drop your FC to 2 points, saving you some tonnage which can then be used for some more direct fire weapons and defense.
I love the fact that you're posting ship designs for discussion. Keep them coming!
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Post by warchariot on Jun 19, 2010 15:54:04 GMT -5
Thanks Dread and Theos, this will really help with up coming games. Now I'll have to find a way to use the chart without anyone else seeing it!
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kashre
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by kashre on Jun 20, 2010 3:53:40 GMT -5
Personally, I think I prefer waiting until a target is closer to dump missiles with a missile heavy fleet. The "threat lanes" are so narrow using a 6 point movement system that its way to easy for even delta 1 ships to dodge missiles at range... if most of your firepower is in missiles, you can turn the board into a veritable minefield where they're bound to hit some of your birds, but a lot will get outmanuvered.
On the other hand, if you line a target up in one of the 'threat lanes' within 8 from it's launch hex, then you are guaranteed to get attacks (and probably hits, but that depends on PD strength).
So far I've had the most success with RDF missiles ships which run in to range 8 on a good target, dump missiles, and then use their unlimited turns to zip out of range and/or swing around on the flanks depending on who wins/loses init rolls on the next turn... of course, they come under fire for at least one turn that way... but you can't live without a little risk.
The long range missiles I actually save for fleets that treat missiles as a backup weapon and have lighter missiles loads.
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Post by warchariot on Jun 20, 2010 10:29:37 GMT -5
"The long range missiles I actually save for fleets that treat missiles as a backup weapon and have lighter missiles loads. "
So you use long range shooting only if they are backup weapons? Otherwiswe you wait until you get closer?
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kashre
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by kashre on Jun 20, 2010 16:17:27 GMT -5
"The long range missiles I actually save for fleets that treat missiles as a backup weapon and have lighter missiles loads. " So you use long range shooting only if they are backup weapons? Otherwiswe you wait until you get closer? Right... I tend to build fleets (when I have the right tech) with 1 or 2 launchers with 1 or 2 turns of ammo each on everything over destroyer sized, even if I'm primarily using direct fire for my firepower. The theory being having your missiles spread out gives you better coverage, which increases the chance of hitting something, even though it makes it harder to mass the missiles on one target. It's harder to do serious damage, unless you land hits on lighter ships (which is what I always try for anyways), but I find that just having a bunch of hexes with missiles counters in them is a good psychological tool for getting the only person I have to play atm (my G/F) to maneuver the way I want her too, and doing it that ways lets me control her movement, to a degree. Of course that all depends on how many Screening cruisers she has... sometimes its still better to hold off until I can guarantee multiple hits on one ship.
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Post by warchariot on Jun 20, 2010 17:50:37 GMT -5
"good psychological tool for getting the only person I have to play atm (my G/F) to maneuver the way I want her too, and doing it that ways lets me control her movement, to a degree. " Well, at least this is one place/time you can maneuver her, the rest of life she is in control.
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kashre
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by kashre on Jun 20, 2010 21:55:49 GMT -5
"good psychological tool for getting the only person I have to play atm (my G/F) to maneuver the way I want her too, and doing it that ways lets me control her movement, to a degree. " Well, at least this is one place/time you can maneuver her, the rest of life she is in control. HAHA! It's funny because it's true.
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theoz
Lieutenant
Armored and Ready!
Posts: 54
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Post by theoz on Jun 22, 2010 8:18:37 GMT -5
Looking carefully at the rules, I'm not sure about missiles and their targeting.
To be specific, we are explicitly told that: ships entering the hex occupied by hostile missiles become the targets of those missiles (p.22, Moving Through Missiles), and that ships with hostile strategic bombardment counters in their hex may choose to offer themselves to those SB counters (p.31, Strategic Bombardment). What I'm not sure of is....
1. Does the p.21 rule apply to Cluster missiles? 2. How does the SB rule interact with the p.21 rule? If I move a ship into a hex containing a Bombardment Missile, does that ship automatically become the missile's target, or do I still have a choice? What about moving into the hex of a SB counter from a Mag Cannon or Rail Gun? Does a ship intending to offer itself as a target for an SB counter have to end its turn in the hex with the counter or can it "accept" hits from such counters during its movement? 3. Does the p.21 rule work in reverse? If a missile moves into a hex containing an enemy ship, must the missiles accept that ship as their target, or can the controlling player have them "skip" over the ship for a better target further on?
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jun 22, 2010 8:30:19 GMT -5
Good questions.
First bombardment missiles should be differentiated from strategic bombardment counters from a rail gun or mag cannon. A "bombardment missile" is for all intents and purposes just a bigger ASGM.
Whenever a missile enters the hex of an enemy starship or vice versa, it attacks. It's controller does not have the option of having it not attack. Originally, cluster missiles had the option of ignoring starship targets. It was eliminated for simplicity, but if you wanted to restore that option it won't break anything.
Strategic Bombardment COUNTERS from a mag cannon or rail gun, will NEVER hit a starship, unless that starship choses to be hit. They are unguided munitions and space is REALLY big. A starship has to make a concerted effort to be in the path of the rounds at right the time.
However, if the fleet is protecting a planet or base that can't dodge, sometimes a starship might choose to go ahead and accept the hit instead to protect the target.
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Post by warchariot on Jun 22, 2010 12:08:57 GMT -5
I guess I'll confess that I had read the optional rules incorrectly and thought that missiles had a limited run time. ASGMs ran 8 hexes for two turns, not they could turn twice. I knew that from the core rules. So having played a couple of games where missiles were removed after a limited run, meant that missile heavy ships wanted to stay out and never closed. The way we handled it was to remove the missiles at the end of their second movement phase after fighters had moved. So was there discussion about limiting the run time of missiles?
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Post by Jester on Jun 22, 2010 18:17:16 GMT -5
A random quetion (but related to Missiels so decided to dump it here). Is it possible to place 6 enemy fighters "around" a ship and prevent it from launching missiles?
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Post by warchariot on Jun 22, 2010 20:27:33 GMT -5
Yes, or your own. Missiles must be placed in empty hexes-see post One Foghter two missile questions
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Post by Jester on Jun 22, 2010 20:47:24 GMT -5
yeah, thats what I assumed...seems like a nasty little trick..."sorry, you cant deploy missiles this turn"... ;)mwhahahahaha
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Post by TheDreadnought on Jun 22, 2010 22:00:19 GMT -5
I So was there discussion about limiting the run time of missiles? Talked about. . . but impractical. Now that you know how long range missile engagements are *supposed* to be done . . . just wait and see how many missile stacks you wind up with on the table!
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