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Post by captainquirk on Mar 9, 2011 17:50:24 GMT -5
May I ask what new faction benefits people have come up with?
Seeking ideas for new fleet designs, but a bit stuck on possible benefits at the moment. Any ideas welcome!
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Post by toaster on Mar 9, 2011 18:31:54 GMT -5
I've posted my ideas on the threads with my ships (FT and Clone Wars) but perhaps if you can give us some idea of the background your thinking of, it might be easier to suggest suitable ideas.
Here's one; Impulsive, +1 to initiative but if you tie the rolls or win by less than 3 you must choose aggresive.
Robert
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Post by warchariot on Mar 9, 2011 23:33:36 GMT -5
I like the idea of the flag ship having an additional role. We discussed this at lenght in another thread, but my thinking is a battleships doesn't stop being a battleship just because it's the fleet flag. Therefore, there should be a battleflag role, or a flagcarrier role ect. When Dread created the Battlecarrier role, he put the benefits of the two together. So we do that with the flag as a house rule.
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Post by fastgit on Mar 10, 2011 8:00:20 GMT -5
I've done something similar... but I drop the fighters.
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Post by captainquirk on Mar 10, 2011 12:52:34 GMT -5
I've posted my ideas on the threads with my ships (FT and Clone Wars) but perhaps if you can give us some idea of the background your thinking of, it might be easier to suggest suitable ideas. Here's one; Impulsive, +1 to initiative but if you tie the rolls or win by less than 3 you must choose aggresive. Robert Well, was partly just looking for ideas and options that wouldn't unbalance the game. For example, if I was looking at creating a Minbari fleet, would a faction benefit that opponents suffered a -1 target them be too much? So, partly kind of looking for toolbox ideas. Though I am building a fleet at the moment based on GZG's ScanFed ships. Somewhat Viking in concept... fast and savage raiders... Comparitively high tech (in the same way that the Danes had pretty good organisation and equipment in comparison with who they raided). Just really not sure what the faction benefit should be. Any ideas welcome
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Post by toaster on Mar 10, 2011 16:05:40 GMT -5
Though I am building a fleet at the moment based on GZG's ScanFed ships. Somewhat Viking in concept... fast and savage raiders... Comparitively high tech (in the same way that the Danes had pretty good organisation and equipment in comparison with who they raided). Just really not sure what the faction benefit should be. Any ideas welcome So perhaps + 1 or +2 to tech total (asuming a limited tech campaign) but they are not allowed the defender role and each fleet must be at least 50% RDF. Robert
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Post by captainquirk on Mar 10, 2011 17:54:51 GMT -5
So perhaps + 1 or +2 to tech total (asuming a limited tech campaign) but they are not allowed the defender role and each fleet must be at least 50% RDF. Robert That would make sense. Sounds pretty good. Thank you
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Post by warchariot on Mar 10, 2011 19:27:44 GMT -5
I've done something similar... but I drop the fighters. Us to on BBs and such
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Post by captainquirk on Mar 11, 2011 23:20:10 GMT -5
May I also please canvas for ideas for a faction originating from a high gravity world?
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Post by kealios on Mar 15, 2011 19:04:11 GMT -5
I am glad this is near the top of the page, as I am just starting to design my own faction and ships, and feel that this is one area the game needs serious help in. If I make a 20-point faction and come over to your house, having never met you, my fleet would be "legal" up to and including the Faction benefit. If I had one you didnt agree with, well, suddenly we're breaking the "unbreakable rules" a little. I had some thoughts about this, actually. I was really balancing the benefits of the different tech levels and cross-referencing them to the weapons and ship roles I wanted access to, and it dawned on me that there could be some printed "legal" or "approved" fleet benefits, some with one or more technology requirements or some-such. The reason this came to was, the three Factions drawn up in the core rules dont follow the 20-point rule, each exceeding one of the requirements (20 points allocated, only 1 5, 2 4's, etc). So I got to thinking, are my ships going to be able to compete with these? I hope so! But I'll need some amazing Faction Benefit! And how do I justify that Hull-regenerating perk! That's a neat one! Sure, he has 2 5's... ...and then it hit. Maybe BECAUSE he has 2 5's, he can "buy" that benefit! So why shouldnt there be others! Any way, to make a long ramble short, this seems to be the one area SDG has dropped the ball in its claim to make "unbreakable" rules, and I'd really like a legal, approved, codified set of Faction Benefits that would allow me to justify something beyond fluff, and show up at your house, having never met you, and show that I have a legal fleet. But maybe that's just me? EDIT: Ironically, this is echoed over in the CB Wishlist thread at www.steeldreadnought.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cb&thread=239&page=3#3980. I hadnt read this yet...
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Post by captainquirk on Mar 16, 2011 2:19:18 GMT -5
This is very eloquent at describing what I was trying to say too. A small catalogue of workable potential faction benefits would be very useful.
Toaster's suggestion for my Star Viking faction seemed to work OK when I tried them last week. I'd already given them 22 points in tech, so the benefit worked well for that part, gave me the ship weaponry I wanted, and the limitations were liveable too.
But as Kealios says, all the "by the book" factions break the rules for factions. So for any play that isn't with a usual gaming mate it is more difficult to play a pick-up game without possibly offending someone or having key features of one's own fleet arbitrarily deactivated. A couple of pages of reasonably relatively balanced faction benefits would help.
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Post by toaster on Mar 16, 2011 4:56:10 GMT -5
Thats why I often try to design "neutral" faction benefits that have a penalty as well as a bonus, look at the scourge, their regenerating hulls cost them big in armour. I think the point your missing is that faction benefits are a way to customise your campaign universe, they are compleatly unnecessary in pick up games and not really intended to be used in such. The book factions are designed to work together with the humans having to be a cut above just to survive the scourge because thats what that universe is like, if you don't like playing the underdog either play the scourge or take lots of D10 penetration weapons against them.
The 20 points of tech rule is a suggestion to get you started not a stone tablet from God. If you look at my Clone Wars/Star Wars list you will see that the tech levels jump markedly between Republic and Empire eras, because thats what was needed to fit that universe.
My suggestion is if you want to play pick up games play with the default 5's across the board and no factions, Once you start to talk about back story for your fleet then you need to sit down with your gaming group and flesh out a universe to set a campaign in.
Just my two cent worth (and my country got rid of two cent coins 20 years ago).
Robert
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Post by kealios on Mar 16, 2011 11:11:28 GMT -5
That's a good point, Toaster. You know gamers though: if it's in the book, they want it! I'll likely just play without benefits for the time being...
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 16, 2011 12:04:34 GMT -5
Any way, to make a long ramble short, this seems to be the one area SDG has dropped the ball in its claim to make "unbreakable" rules, and I'd really like a legal, approved, codified set of Faction Benefits that would allow me to justify something beyond fluff, and show up at your house, having never met you, and show that I have a legal fleet. But maybe that's just me? EDIT: Ironically, this is echoed over in the CB Wishlist thread at www.steeldreadnought.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cb&thread=239&page=3#3980. I hadnt read this yet... I had actually given a lot of thought to this topic. First, on the topic of the unbreakability of the ship design system: If you read the faction rules description carefully, you will see that it specifically mentions faction benefits must be agreed to by both players. The reason for this being, I wanted to give people the flexibility to create whatever faction benefits they wanted, and not be handicapped in their creativity. Also, at the beginning of the optional rules section (of which faction benefits is one), you will find it states that the optional rules are created to provide more flavor and variety in the games, and were not optimized towards "tournament-style" game balance. If you want that level of total game balance, you play with the core rules only, which is TL 5 across the board with vanilla factions. No other system offers any way to play with a balanced ship design system without house ruling things left and right. Only with Colonial Battlefleet is that possible. So to then turn around and say that optional rules, advertised as potentially unbalancing to the game in the name of offering more interest and flexibility violates the "unbreakability" of the completely independent ship design system, is. . . I feel . . a little demanding? As far as a "legally codified set of faction benefits." Hopefully, if you have my address and are showing up to my house, you could also presumably work out some mutually agreeable faction benefits in advance. But if you want official list of faction benefits to pick from, you also have to realize that its not really going to give you the kind of flexibility you want, so people would be dissatisfied with the list and coming up with their own anyway. Finally, that represents a not-insignificant amount of design work and playtesting to do something like that and have it be balanced. I was more focused on getting the core rules out there and available for people to play. I may at some point come back and do some "faction benefits menu" like you are proposing. . . since, as you say, its on the wish-list. . but frankly given the amount of work involved, that's something I would sell you. . . not include for free in a fairly comprehensive ruleset that I'm selling for $14.95. Unfortunately, that may take a little time to get to. I've got projects up to my eyeballs and limited time to work on them. There's a lot more demand for spinal mounts, and support for other "styles" of play right now, than there is for faction benefits lists.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 16, 2011 13:16:17 GMT -5
And on re-reading my post, I feel that I may have come off sounding harsher than intended, and if so, I apologize. I guess I was just trying to get the point across that coming up with faction benefits and agreeing with your opponent on them is orders of magnitude easier than coming up with perfectly balanced ones that work in all situations without introducing any imbalance to the game. That's really a pretty tall order, and while yes, it may just take a couple pages to explain them, its all the work that goes into developing the content for those couple pages that is the hard part. Its not something anybody could just dash off and type up - although if somebody can, please let me know! . . . However I do encourage people to come up with their own and share them. Hence the 'Factions' board.
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Post by captainquirk on Mar 16, 2011 14:00:20 GMT -5
I'm actually finding this the only hard part of assimilating the CB rules. I must have a stunted imagination or something!
Point taken about development priorities. But I have absolutely no objection to you selling me a list of sample faction benefits! I'd be perfectly willing to buy that as part of a product. Maybe as part of a campaign pack?
Though I'm also happy to be inspired by any that people share too.
Maybe thinking these up gets easier with practice, hope so!
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Post by toaster on Mar 16, 2011 16:07:48 GMT -5
Let me take another stab at explaining what I think this is all about.
There is no generic, pick one and go for it faction benefit list because faction benefits are not generic. Factions benefits are plot devices to make forces behave they same way on the table as they do in the source material (movie, book or imagination) they need to be tied to both the tech levels of the forces and the look of the models (imagine fielding a scourge force of Star Trek federation ships painted in pastels with hippy symbols, it just doesnt work if the scourge ships arn't either brutal, spikey or both). The opponents tech, benefits and look are also a major factor, you can be as over the top and cheesy as you like with your faction benefit as long as you extend the same courtesy to your opponent, your fleets should balance against each other but a standard fleet would get its butt handed to it on a plate.
So a list of generic benefits won't work, you could have a lists of tech levels and benefits for up to half a dozen forces designed to be played against each other but at that point you are desinging settings not benefits.
Robert
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 16, 2011 16:19:29 GMT -5
I'm actually finding this the only hard part of assimilating the CB rules. I must have a stunted imagination or something! Point taken about development priorities. But I have absolutely no objection to you selling me a list of sample faction benefits! I'd be perfectly willing to buy that as part of a product. Maybe as part of a campaign pack? Though I'm also happy to be inspired by any that people share too. Maybe thinking these up gets easier with practice, hope so! Toaster makes an excellent point, which I think is the most compelling so far. Here's a question/suggestion. . . How many games have you played? From a mechanical perspective. . . The more intimately familiar you are with the rules, what the nuimbers mean, and how they interact, the easier designing faction benefits would be. Unless you're just gifted with an intuitave understanding of these things, you really need 'hands on' knowledge, to tinker with that aspect of the system. If you're trying to do it 'cold' without really having much experience with way the rules work in actual play, then yes, its's going to be really difficult to think things up. In which case, I would suggest just play without them for a while. Once you've gotten a good amount of in-play experience under your belt, and have had lots of opportunities to wish you'd had an extra +1 on this or that die roll or what have you, it might be easier for you.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 16, 2011 17:01:23 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion for your question, that will also illustrate the design challenge associated with a "standard list" of faction benefits.
So for your High G planet race, here are a couple ideas:
Their bodies are super-strong and sturdy, so marines and security forces get +1 to their die rolls.
Or
I read a book series where a race from a High G planet made the best fighter pilots because they could withstand more G's and out manuever their opponents in a dogfight. So maybe your race would get +1 to all dogfight rolls?
But then how powerful are these abilities and how would you price them? Key questions are:
How much benefit does it provide? How situational is the benefit? How hard is it for the player to create and exploit that situation?
The first one provides a nice benefit, but is highly situational - only helping in boarding actions. And it could be extremely difficult for the player to exploit because an opponent could make it very difficult for him to force boarding actions. So overall, not that powerful. . . but it could be decisive if used in a universe where boarding actions are common, like Noble Armada.
The second one provides a very nice benefit, is somewhat situational, but its not really hard at all for the player to exploit that situation. If the opponent has fighters, it's pretty much bound to give the player a big advantage over the opponent. On the other hand, if the opponent doesn't have fighters, this fairly powerful ability is completely useless. How would you price something like that where an ability can either be very valuable, or utterly worthless, with very few options in between?
You'd have to restrict the faction benefits to only things that are highly quantifiable, and that will always provide some level of benefit, and then you'd need a way to quantify the level of benefit it provides. All of which adds up to not very many or very exciting faction benefits. Much better just to create something that fits the flavor of your race, and negotiate with your opponents beforehand. Hopefully these people are your friends and you can arrive at some ideas that will be mutually agreeable and create an enjoyable gaming experience for you both.
If you're going to be playing against people you've never met before, you're probably best off sticking to the core rules anyway.
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Post by warchariot on Mar 16, 2011 18:24:12 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion for your question, that will also illustrate the design challenge associated with a "standard list" of faction benefits. So for your High G planet race, here are a couple ideas: Their bodies are super-strong and sturdy, so marines and security forces get +1 to their die rolls. Or I read a book series where a race from a High G planet made the best fighter pilots because they could withstand more G's and out manuever their opponents in a dogfight. So maybe your race would get +1 to all dogfight rolls? But then how powerful are these abilities and how would you price them? Key questions are: How much benefit does it provide? How situational is the benefit? How hard is it for the player to create and exploit that situation? The first one provides a nice benefit, but is highly situational - only helping in boarding actions. And it could be extremely difficult for the player to exploit because an opponent could make it very difficult for him to force boarding actions. So overall, not that powerful. . . but it could be decisive if used in a universe where boarding actions are common, like Noble Armada. The second one provides a very nice benefit, is somewhat situational, but its not really hard at all for the player to exploit that situation. If the opponent has fighters, it's pretty much bound to give the player a big advantage over the opponent. On the other hand, if the opponent doesn't have fighters, this fairly powerful ability is completely useless. How would you price something like that where an ability can either be very valuable, or utterly worthless, with very few options in between? You'd have to restrict the faction benefits to only things that are highly quantifiable, and that will always provide some level of benefit, and then you'd need a way to quantify the level of benefit it provides. All of which adds up to not very many or very exciting faction benefits. Much better just to create something that fits the flavor of your race, and negotiate with your opponents beforehand. Hopefully these people are your friends and you can arrive at some ideas that will be mutually agreeable and create an enjoyable gaming experience for you both. If you're going to be playing against people you've never met before, you're probably best off sticking to the core rules anyway. When you think faction benefits, you must think about both sides and balance them against each other. We did just that in MvM. Colonials have Defender benefits and +1 to dog fight for Leopard 7s. Cyborgs have mass fighters and Raider as a role benefit. I'm not saying they are equal, or the only ones there are, just that they balance against each other. This was a lot of playtesting to get this right. Still, as we play more games of MvM, we still tinker with these benefits and wonder if we got these right? At times, I think the Cyborg fighter advantage with the number of missiles is to much for the Colonials. Other times I wonder about Hvy Rail Guns with 5 FC and Recon help being too much for the Cyborgs. So it is tought to get this just right, especailly when people play differently than you do.
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