daniel
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by daniel on Mar 25, 2011 11:18:30 GMT -5
Can we walk through an example using a gatling autocannon against Reaper 3's? I'm unclear whether we're treating it like PD or a ship-to-ship weapon. The rolls and calculations are different.
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Post by kealios on Mar 25, 2011 12:35:51 GMT -5
I dont know much about the ships in MvM, but here is my interpretation of how this is, using a made up Destroyer with FC 1 against a squadron of Interceptors, using the new ruling for Rapid Fire:
The Interceptors ended last turn 4 hexes away from the DD, so as he moves, the ship gets to within 2 hexes of them. It fires its main gun at an enemy ship in his forward arc, then, using the Gatling AC's Autonomous feature to fire independently, its one Anti-fighter gun fires at the Interceptors. Range 2 + Defense 7 = 9+ to hit. With a d6 and a FC of 1, the DD can only hope for a 7, so it reduces the HDmg of the AC by 2 for a +2 to hit. Now the AC only does 1 HDmg on this shot, which will be enough to kill a fighter if it hits. Now the DD rolls a d6 and adds 3 (1 for FC, 2 for the Rapid Fire property) and can potentially get the 9 its needs if it rolls a 6. Long odds, but certainly possible.
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daniel
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by daniel on Mar 25, 2011 14:57:26 GMT -5
Got it - thanks. I see a problem. It's mostly escort types that have ACs and they top out at 1 or 2 FC. Can a vessel only engage fighters up to the number of her FC?
Let's take the New Colonial Marauder as an example. She's a sweet little screen CL with 2 FC and 4 pairs of gatling AC and two heavy AC. On paper she exists to wade into fighter swarms and make them cry. In the original rules she's useless because none of her weapons can harm a fighter. With this upgrade will her 2 FC limit her to two swats per turn?
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 25, 2011 15:01:26 GMT -5
Yes, that's exactly how it would work.
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Post by captainquirk on Mar 25, 2011 15:43:06 GMT -5
Maybe the FCs could be used to target a hex, so one FC could control fire for several autocannon at the same fighter group?
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daniel
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by daniel on Mar 25, 2011 15:49:23 GMT -5
Maybe the FCs could be used to target a hex, so one FC could control fire for several autocannon at the same fighter group? I like that.
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Post by kealios on Mar 25, 2011 17:19:19 GMT -5
Most Gatlings are Autonomous (p.29, main rule book), meaning it doesnt take any FC to use them - they will fire every turn if there are valid targets. It seems you are only limited by the number of hard points you have, as each hard point can only fire at a single target. The only weapons in the game, at least in the core rules, that are both Autonomous and can engage fighters are the Gatling AC and the Gatling Lasers.
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daniel
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by daniel on Mar 25, 2011 17:29:52 GMT -5
Most Gatlings are Autonomous (p.29, main rule book), meaning it doesnt take any FC to use them - they will fire every turn if there are valid targets. It seems you are only limited by the number of hard points you have, as each hard point can only fire at a single target. The only weapons in the game, at least in the core rules, that are both Autonomous and can engage fighters are the Gatling AC and the Gatling Lasers. Fabulous. That solves that... ETA: Looking at the rules I also see that gatling autos are Rapid Fire, meaning they re-roll misses. Are we keeping that? I assume so.
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Post by fastgit on Mar 26, 2011 8:23:19 GMT -5
Most Gatlings are Autonomous (p.29, main rule book), meaning it doesnt take any FC to use them - they will fire every turn if there are valid targets. It seems you are only limited by the number of hard points you have, as each hard point can only fire at a single target. The only weapons in the game, at least in the core rules, that are both Autonomous and can engage fighters are the Gatling AC and the Gatling Lasers. Fabulous. That solves that... ETA: Looking at the rules I also see that gatling autos are Rapid Fire, meaning they re-roll misses. Are we keeping that? I assume so. I assumed so as well... This mod (the borrowing from DR to aid targeting) makes GACs a much more attractive option. I like.
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Post by warchariot on Mar 26, 2011 10:03:28 GMT -5
What it does is make the smaller ships more usable in MvM.
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Post by coldsteel on Mar 26, 2011 17:18:08 GMT -5
Maybe we are approaching this issue from the wrong direction. Is the problem auto-cannons are weak against fighters, or are the fighter defense ratings too high for balance vs. the weapon effect? I don't want to adjust the fighters. That would cause too many other issues with dog fighting and I think those rules work well as is. But go back to the BSG series and watch how many fighters and missiles are taken out by what is essentially a long range flak barrage. Why not treat AC similar to flak, but with the ability to target a hex further out? Keep the mechanics the same as a single hex flak barrage for each hard point, but allow the barrage to be placed anywhere in arc at a range up to the # of AC on that hard point. So for example a ship with 2 AC in the F/P/S would then be able to fire 1 flak barrage at a range of 1 or 2 anywhere in arc.
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Post by toaster on Mar 26, 2011 23:29:16 GMT -5
The way I read Dreads suggestion was that the borrowing damage was the new rapid fire mechanisim so it would replace the reroll.
Robert
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Post by kealios on Mar 27, 2011 2:15:55 GMT -5
Agreed. I read this as no more reroll also.
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Post by fastgit on Mar 27, 2011 10:00:19 GMT -5
The way I read Dreads suggestion was that the borrowing damage was the new rapid fire mechanisim so it would replace the reroll. Robert Huh. After a second read... I do believe you and kealios are in the right. Trading from damage to attack or a re-roll. Not sure I like that as much. I wonder... would having either option available work, or just increase bookkeeping needlessly?
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Post by captainquirk on Mar 27, 2011 12:37:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure the re-roll is needed.
With this approach it's perfectly possible to have an anti-fighter CL that will score a good ratio of hits anyway.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 27, 2011 12:38:00 GMT -5
Yeah, no re-roll.
Adding a re-roll with the damage trade off would pretty much guarantee hits at fairly substantial ranges.
I feel that having both is un-needed complexity (although obviously people who are really attached to the re-roll can just house-rule it back in).
The flak barrage idea has some merit. . . but we already have a mechanic for shooting at fighters at range with gatling weapons. I feel we're better off keeping a consistent approach.
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daniel
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 110
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Post by daniel on Mar 28, 2011 10:22:42 GMT -5
One more question then: does the ship's FC factor in even though the weapon is autonomous? 2 FC = +2 to the roll?
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Post by kealios on Mar 28, 2011 12:52:40 GMT -5
Good question! I am assuming YES, as it is in all my equations, above. The ruling on Autonomous states you do not need to spend Fire Control points to fire the weapons; I take this to mean you can fire up to your FC-worth of other hardpoints, but that you still get to add the FC as a bonus to hit while shooting.
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 28, 2011 12:57:28 GMT -5
Yes, FC still applies to autonomous weapons.
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Post by irishthump on Mar 28, 2011 14:41:23 GMT -5
Maybe we are approaching this issue from the wrong direction. Is the problem auto-cannons are weak against fighters, or are the fighter defense ratings too high for balance vs. the weapon effect? I don't want to adjust the fighters. That would cause too many other issues with dog fighting and I think those rules work well as is. But go back to the BSG series and watch how many fighters and missiles are taken out by what is essentially a long range flak barrage. Why not treat AC similar to flak, but with the ability to target a hex further out? Keep the mechanics the same as a single hex flak barrage for each hard point, but allow the barrage to be placed anywhere in arc at a range up to the # of AC on that hard point. So for example a ship with 2 AC in the F/P/S would then be able to fire 1 flak barrage at a range of 1 or 2 anywhere in arc. I like the idea of barrage fire, although PD and Flak batteries seem to work well within the mechanics of the game, we don't really have anything to simulate the long range suppression fire that we see Galactica produce during the series. Maybe being able to put out such a powerful screen would unbalance the game?
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