ASGM Missiles always win

[bubbacleese]

It seems to me that loading up all of the ASGM missiles you can, using RDF to get the free Delta (saving space where you can) and just shoving the battle down the throats of your enemy is win every time.

Only firing your missiles when you are at range 8 or less eliminates the missiles from 1) missing the target, and 2) getting cherry picked off on the long turns going in. The only defense the target ship gets is its PD (maybe modified by screen ships.)

Tactic is to attack to close range by being the Tactical player, not the aggressive player. Sure the Escort missiles go onto the table before the enemy Capital ships shoot, so some missiles can be defended this way.

BCR - 62 - 384 (Three hard points with 3xASGM with 2 Reloads. FC-3, Delta 2 (+RDF=3), Point Def 5, Armor 6, Shields 9.

CAR - 43 - 185 (Three hard points with 2xASGM with 2 Reloads. FC-3, Delta 2 (+RDF=3), Point Def 5, Armor 4, Shields 5.

These are just very ruff thrown together ship designs to make a point. The BCR fires 9 ASGMs and the CAR fires 6 ASGMs. Putting two of these ships near each other so that two BCRs or two CAR deploy their 9ea or 6ea into a single hex heading towards a single ship which they cannot miss.

Tell me what happens when 18 ASGMs move into the hex with your BCx. They shoot their Point Defense of 5 +2 because they have friendly screen ships nearby. So that is 18 - 7 (because you roll perfect defense) leaving 11 to hit at 10 hull damage each. Thus one volley is causing 110 hull to your BCx.

I'm seeing this weapon / tactic as being 7 to 10 times more effective than any other combination I've seen or read about.

Please someone show me where I'm thinking this incorrectly as I want these rules to work I think on the whole that are just wonderful.

Thanks,

Bubba Cleese

[kashre]

Welll... they are pretty strong... in fact, I still believe than in general, and especially in shield heavy environments, that missiles are much better used up close when you can get semi-guaranteed hits rather than wasting a ton of ammo saturating an area from range.

But they're not invulnerable. First of all, if you spam off a bunch of short range missiles they're not going to hit until the turn after you launch them.. which means you're going to get all the enemy's direct fire weapons in the teeth before you can hit them and your capital ships are giving up their fire-first ability. That also means that their capital ships can focus on your missile heavy CAx's with direct fire weapons, possibly taking out a chunk of your firepower before your CAs get to dump their missiles.

Second, missiles have to attack the first target they encounter, so a smartly built fleet will include destroyers or CLs to screen the high value targets.

Third, if a lot of those destroyers and CL's have the Screen role, it increases the PD abilities of the fleet by a not insignificant amount (although it doesn't make you missile proof).

Fourth, with only 2 reloads per hard point if you fail to get at even one heavy ship you're sitting ducks for whatever direct fire weapons are left.

5th, if you're using a non-shield universe all the direct fire ships are going to be loaded down with mag guns and rail guns, which are going to tear missile ships apart if they try to close, as evidenced by some of the MvM AARs I've seen.

Soooo... yeah, missiles are dope, but IMO they don't rule the game every time over everything else...

[irishthump]

I have to agree with Kashre's points...

ASGMs are lethal at short range, but the trick is to get to short range before you're pummelled!
As I've found to my cost, you'll rack your brains trying to maneuvre your missiles to chase down capital ships, then watch them get picked of by Tigers with their ECM ability.

Long range saturation is tricky too, as your opponent can use escorts to soak up a lot of missiles and screen the big guys. You'll
find yourself with no ammo staring down the barrel of several railguns!

[fastgit]

Nice points, Kashre and Irishthump. A well-balanced fleet can overcome an ASGM barrage.

[bubbacleese]

I made my first post too general. I'll try to be more specific this time. Also the BCR design has changed slightly. It now has three hardpoints of 4xASGMs (2 Mag), lvl 9 shields, 7points of armor, 3FC, and 2PD.

Turn sequence will make all of the difference, for example:
Turn 4 you are the tactical player, and thus you can move to withing 8 hexes of your target(s).

Turn Sequence 3b Capital ship shooting, you opponent shoots, then you lay down your missiles.
Turn Sequence 3c Escort ship shooting, you opponent shoots, and yes can shoot at some of you missiles... With what weapons, I'm not certain which weapons can fire at a missile. Afterwards your escort ships place their missiles.
Turn Sequence 4a,b,c,d all Damage Control.
Turn 5
Turn Sequence 2a Missile movement - Missiles move their eight hexes and hit the target they were launch to hit. (There is no opportunity for Destroyers or anything else to move and intercept these missiles.)
At the point these missile move into the enemy ships hex movement stops and missile attacks are resolved. The target ship (BCx) gets it's PD..say 4 for example, and let's put two screening ships in range of our target ship, each will add +1 to the target ships PD (4+2=6).
Point Defense shooting - (PD 1D10) vs (ASGM 1D10) but defender wins ties, so lets assume a simple 60% defense success rate. 24 ASGM incoming (6*60%=3.6 round up to 4 successes) which leaves 20 ASGM to hit the target causing 200 point of damage.
Critical Hits - ASGM 1D10+1 for a 6.5 average. You BCx has a max of 8 Armor (very expensive) so let's say 6 which will eliminate all d6 weapons. Thus about 1/2 of the 20 are penatrating for criticals, so 10 criticals.

Now this is two of my BCR Missile ships which are moved so they can each drop missiles into the same hex within eight of their target hex.

Some think that 2 Mag is not enough, but if all missiles are fired from within eight hexes they alway hit their target at the very start of the next game turn.

Scale to Scale - CAR Missile ships target CAx.
CLR Missile ships target CLx.
Less missiles being fired, less PD to soak up the missiles.

Like I said before, I'm very much enjoying these rules and I hope I'm just not understanding the missiles / missile defense rules.

Thanks,

Bubba Cleese

[irishthump]

Apr 30, 2011 7:49:52 GMT -5 bubbacleese said:

Turn sequence will make all of the difference, for example:
Turn 4 you are the tactical player, and thus you can move to withing 8 hexes of your target(s).

And you're also well within your opponent's range... I'm only really familiar with MvM, so my view is based around that.

Let's say your targeting an Acropolis refit. FC 3, 2 hardpoints with 4 railguns apiece. At close range he needs a 5 (at most) on a d10.

Apr 30, 2011 7:49:52 GMT -5 bubbacleese said:

Turn Sequence 3b Capital ship shooting, you opponent shoots, then you lay down your missiles.
Bubba Cleese

Personally I think you'll sustain some heavy damage in the capital shooting phase. The first barrage from the railguns could potentially strip your shields and if there are other ships in range I would be inclined to pour it on from them too! Then the escorts have to fire as well, and this is before you put a single missile in the air...

I think the aggressive option would be better; shoot first, then at least your missiles will be hitting the target in the move phase.

[coldsteel]

We had a cylon player try Bubba Cleese's move against an Acropolis Refit in one of our early games. The 8 rail guns shredded over 2/3ds of the 3 blade's hull boxes before the cylon got a shot off. A 2d Acropolis finished it off at longer range. It is an interesting tactic, but I doubt you can pull it off more than once or twice. You are better off firing missiles at longer range to attrit your opponent and only try this with your last volley against a damaged target.

[TheDreadnought]

There are any number of reasons why this tactic seems a lot more effective than it would be in actual play, especially when using core 6 point missile movement. (12 point missile movement makes them dramatically more powerful). Against a properly maneuvering opponent, you will HAVE to win initiative, or you will die while trying to maneuver into position to get your 1-turn hits.

As described screening ships are going to interpose themselves between you and the capital ships you're needing to kill, so it will take you a turn or two to chew through those. In the meantime you're eating railguns and heavy railguns at point-blank range.

So anyway, I'd suggest you try your technique in three or four games. It's not nearly as "always win" as you think it is. Which is not so say you might not get it to work from time to time, but that's true about a lot of approaches. Ultimately, your tactical skills on the tabletop rather than the design of your ships are going to play the larger role in determining victory.

. . . and if you do find that you're winning every game with it. Switch places with your opponent. Make him play your fleet while you design one of your own. If the ASGM is the ultimate weapon, he should still be able to beat you with it even when you see it coming. . . otherwise what you've got is just a disparity in tactical skill between players. Colonial Battlefleet is a game that very much rewards tactical skill.

[warchariot]

The one point I haven't seen mentioned is properly placed Cluster missiles which the ASGMs have to run through to get to any ship. The ECM of Tigers are also used with these as mentioned above. It seems like you could crush someone at short range, and you can once you get there, but missiles are a multi-range weapon.

Great point to discuss and I'm sure it will work the first time or two that you use it, then you will/should have to adjust tactics, which is the whole point of this game!

[kashre]

Apr 30, 2011 7:49:52 GMT -5 bubbacleese said:

I made my first post too general. I'll try to be more specific this time. Also the BCR design has changed slightly. It now has three hardpoints of 4xASGMs (2 Mag), lvl 9 shields, 7points of armor, 3FC, and 2PD.

Turn sequence will make all of the difference, for example:
Turn 4 you are the tactical player, and thus you can move to withing 8 hexes of your target(s).

Turn Sequence 3b Capital ship shooting, you opponent shoots, then you lay down your missiles.
Turn Sequence 3c Escort ship shooting, you opponent shoots, and yes can shoot at some of you missiles... With what weapons, I'm not certain which weapons can fire at a missile. Afterwards your escort ships place their missiles.
Turn Sequence 4a,b,c,d all Damage Control.
Turn 5
Turn Sequence 2a Missile movement - Missiles move their eight hexes and hit the target they were launch to hit. (There is no opportunity for Destroyers or anything else to move and intercept these missiles.)
At the point these missile move into the enemy ships hex movement stops and missile attacks are resolved. The target ship (BCx) gets it's PD..say 4 for example, and let's put two screening ships in range of our target ship, each will add +1 to the target ships PD (4+2=6).
Point Defense shooting - (PD 1D10) vs (ASGM 1D10) but defender wins ties, so lets assume a simple 60% defense success rate. 24 ASGM incoming (6*60%=3.6 round up to 4 successes) which leaves 20 ASGM to hit the target causing 200 point of damage.
Critical Hits - ASGM 1D10+1 for a 6.5 average. You BCx has a max of 8 Armor (very expensive) so let's say 6 which will eliminate all d6 weapons. Thus about 1/2 of the 20 are penatrating for criticals, so 10 criticals.

Now this is two of my BCR Missile ships which are moved so they can each drop missiles into the same hex within eight of their target hex.

Some think that 2 Mag is not enough, but if all missiles are fired from within eight hexes they alway hit their target at the very start of the next game turn.

Scale to Scale - CAR Missile ships target CAx.
CLR Missile ships target CLx.
Less missiles being fired, less PD to soak up the missiles.

Like I said before, I'm very much enjoying these rules and I hope I'm just not understanding the missiles / missile defense rules.

Thanks,

Bubba Cleese

It could always go like this too:

You have 2x BCR (missiles), 2x CAR (missiles). He has 2x BCR (mag guns), 2x CARs.

1> You are manuvering to get straight shots on him. He puts his CARs in the hex you have to shoot down in order to hit the BCRs, thus screening his big ships.

2> Cap ship's fire. His BCRs kill or cripple one of your CARs while you place missiles.

3> Escorts fire: his CAR's finish off your crippled CAR or do some damage through the shields (hopefully) of your untouched CAR (maaaaybe taking out some missiles).

Next turn:
1> Missiles move. 18 of them hit his CAR and vaporize it.

2> Everyone shuffles around looking for position. If you get the initiative you can probably get a shot on one of his BCRs, but if you don't, then you are going to be out of luck because he can go to a hex where you can't get a direct hit. Now you have unmanuverable missiles at short range which are going to overshoot their target and fly off into the ether while he pounds you at close range with direct fire weapons.

Even if you do get a guaranteed hit on one of his BCRs, he's going to slaughter your other CAR (because both his BCRs again will fire before your missiles can hit them, and then you'll have 2 BCRs (one possibly damaged) which are almost out of ammo against a BCR and two CARs.

So yeah, you might dominate a battle like that... but you'll have to win the initiative basically every single turn, and you'll have to hope that he either designed a bunch of close range (torpedo) ships, or that he'll miss all of his mag/rail/dirsuptor shots.

Whereabouts do you live anyway? If you're anywhere near the San Fran bay area I'd love to get a game together and we can test all this stuff out on each other.

[bubbacleese]

IrishThump - your 2Hardpoint with 4Railguns each at one arc take up 96 Mass..each. So with those two hardpoints you've used up 192 mass. My BCR total mass is 578. My missiles are just 22 mass each on 3 hard points so just 66 with the two reloads thus 10 shots. What the heck is the total mass of this ship carrying 2x4RailGuns?

Kashre - I'm in Dallas so it will need to be a long range combat
You point 1> Moving to get striaght shoots on my target. Ships laying down missiles can lay them down on the left side, in front, on the right side...in other words my launch path is three hexes wide...

Cost to build - RailGun needs arc of fire, missiles don't. RailGun rolls to hit, at range 8 or less missiles don't. Shooting outside of range 8 with say a FC of 3. Range 9 (50%), Range 10 (40%), Range 11 (30%), Range 12 (20%). Soon it will take many many railguns to get enough hits on the same shield to knock it down at only 8 points per hit. Mass of RailGuns with just a single arc (4 guns on one HP is 96.)

The BCR I've designed has level 9 sheilds so shooting at the foreward three sheilds requires five RailGun hits just to bring the shields down (36 sheilds vs 8,16,24,32,40) And a sixth hit to get a chance of a critical. Every missile that hits has a very good chance at a critical.

Cost to build #2 - Since my chosen weapon is so very much lighter than your RailGun weapon I'll have a bunch of mass left over for Delta, Sheidls, Mags...etc. Every hit has a good chance at a critical (does not have to knock down the shield first.)

"You are going to shoot me down at long range"...ok my delta is 3 or 4. We are at range 30, nobody can hit. Range 20 nobody can hit. Range 15, RailGuns with a very expensive FC can hit 10%. Maybe on this one next game turn will you be in your sweet spot of range 9-12. Or maybe I'm already inside range 8.

By the way, on your defense by tossing a destroyer in front of the missiles. I simply put enough missiles in the hex in front of the other missiles which are intended for the big ship. Missiles move, first set hit and blow up the destroyer, second set moves freely through the left over pieces and parts of the used to be blocking destroyer then hits the big ship.

But here we are seperated by miles and miles of distance and until we both put these ideas on the board we can type and type and type and not change each others minds. But I'm having tons of fun trying.

Bubba Cleese

[warchariot]

Bubba Cleese, play a game and write up your battle report. It would be interesting to see if you are right. I do believe these tactics could work a time or two, but not every game. The system is design to keep any weapon type from dominating the game. Try it, you'll see.

[kashre]

Apr 30, 2011 13:44:14 GMT -5 bubbacleese said:

IrishThump - your 2Hardpoint with 4Railguns each at one arc take up 96 Mass..each. So with those two hardpoints you've used up 192 mass. My BCR total mass is 578. My missiles are just 22 mass each on 3 hard points so just 66 with the two reloads thus 10 shots. What the heck is the total mass of this ship carrying 2x4RailGuns?

Kashre - I'm in Dallas so it will need to be a long range combat
You point 1> Moving to get striaght shoots on my target. Ships laying down missiles can lay them down on the left side, in front, on the right side...in other words my launch path is three hexes wide...

Cost to build - RailGun needs arc of fire, missiles don't. RailGun rolls to hit, at range 8 or less missiles don't. Shooting outside of range 8 with say a FC of 3. Range 9 (50%), Range 10 (40%), Range 11 (30%), Range 12 (20%). Soon it will take many many railguns to get enough hits on the same shield to knock it down at only 8 points per hit. Mass of RailGuns with just a single arc (4 guns on one HP is 96.)

The BCR I've designed has level 9 sheilds so shooting at the foreward three sheilds requires five RailGun hits just to bring the shields down (36 sheilds vs 8,16,24,32,40) And a sixth hit to get a chance of a critical. Every missile that hits has a very good chance at a critical.

Cost to build #2 - Since my chosen weapon is so very much lighter than your RailGun weapon I'll have a bunch of mass left over for Delta, Sheidls, Mags...etc. Every hit has a good chance at a critical (does not have to knock down the shield first.)

"You are going to shoot me down at long range"...ok my delta is 3 or 4. We are at range 30, nobody can hit. Range 20 nobody can hit. Range 15, RailGuns with a very expensive FC can hit 10%. Maybe on this one next game turn will you be in your sweet spot of range 9-12. Or maybe I'm already inside range 8.

By the way, on your defense by tossing a destroyer in front of the missiles. I simply put enough missiles in the hex in front of the other missiles which are intended for the big ship. Missiles move, first set hit and blow up the destroyer, second set moves freely through the left over pieces and parts of the used to be blocking destroyer then hits the big ship.

But here we are seperated by miles and miles of distance and until we both put these ideas on the board we can type and type and type and not change each others minds. But I'm having tons of fun trying.

Bubba Cleese

Well... in my example, I was taking out your cruisers to eliminate missile launchers, not firing on the BCRs first. My ships wouldnt have all railguns, there would be anti-shield weapons mixed in. A quick BCR (578 tons) I put together has 4x heavy phasers (FPS), 4x railguns (FPS), 2x mag cannon (F) and 4x gat laser (F) with FC3. You're CAR with shield 5 is only going to have 10 shield points in the front, which a single heavy phaser hit will take down. I think even at range 9-10 8x hvy phazers and 8x railguns and 4 mag cannons (all with target number 6-7) would have a good chance scoring an outright kill on your CA. If closing velocities keep you from ending at range 9-10 (which is your sweet spot, not mine) then you'll be even closer. At ranges of less than 8 I wouldn't be supprised if my BCRs could solo kill your CAs.

You wouldn't have a 3 hex wide attack path for the missiles because there would only be 2 hex rows you could score hits in... otherwise your missiles would end up 1 hex away from the ships and get ECMed before flying off into the distance. My experience has been that the optimal setup for this kind of attack in a 4vs4 is attached in the image, with your ships being the black hexes, and the missiles all going into the red X. During the initial approach it's not that hard to ensure you have a light ship shielding each heavy ship, unless you have split your forces. If your missiles launchers are shifted left or right the turn points are in the wrong place to score hits.



As for the USS Meatshield Defense... the way we have always played is that all missiles move, stop in the first hex with a target, then attacks are resolved after all missiles movement is done. So we have never been able to pop a DD (or CAR in this case) very quickly and then let the rest of the missiles go in to the BCR. I looked at the FAQ and in the rulebook and I don't see a clear ruling on how that works though, so maybe we have been playing it wrong. (dreadnaught?)

On top of all of that, your tactic is still predicated on winning the initiative every single turn from range 10 down.

So yeah... arm-chair admirallizationalizing is fun But I'd love to see some AARs of games where you used this tactic.

Personally, after experimenting with a lot of stuff (including missile heavy RDF fleets like this), I find that having a mix of missiles (which do have a ton of punch at close range, plus the shield skipping ability) backed up with the fire-first and wider arcs of direct fire weapons works the best.

Also, just to be clear, you are talking about using the "default" tech levels, which means all tech at level 5 right? Cause mixing that stuff up changes the feel of the game quite a bit, and we pretty much never use "default".

Another question that comes to mind, what kind of optional rules are you using? Expecially the max-speed rules. Generally, we use the max speed rules from the core rulebook.

[warchariot]

"As for the USS Meatshield Defense... the way we have always played is that all missiles move, stop in the first hex with a target, then attacks are resolved after all missiles movement is done. So we have never been able to pop a DD (or CAR in this case) very quickly and then let the rest of the missiles go in to the BCR. I looked at the FAQ and in the rulebook and I don't see a clear ruling on how that works though, so maybe we have been playing it wrong. (dreadnaught?)"

You are correct and we have played it the way you do all along. On page 42 the rule says, "Once the missile enters a hex containing a target its movement immediately stops and the missile switches to attack mode." Then on the next page it says, "Once a missile is armed and it occupies the same hex as a target, the missile switches to attack mode."

So I can see where you could argue that each group of missiles attacks in turn so you could clear a path. Of couse this wouldn't apply in the example because they are all one stack. The reason I don't believe this is true is because of the movement sequence. On page 19 the rulebook says, "After all missiles have been moved, the Aggressive player resolves attacks for all missiles that have entered the hex of a valid enemey target." It goes on to say the Tactical player does the same. Hope that clears it up

[warchariot]

Lets have a challenge to decide the matter. I purpose that several different groups try out the example posted by bubbacleese. We each build the two missile ships, or bubbacleese can provide us his if he likes. Then you build/pick or whatever equal points to best defeat this blight on mankind. Then post your results!

What I'm thinking is the missile CA and BC verses the up-dated Colonial Armageddon D. I have two buddies, we'll play three games with each of us playing each side once. This round-robin format we use a lot for quick playing games. I'll post result once we're done. However it will be a couple of weeks as I'm out of town this next week.

[irishthump]

May 1, 2011 10:38:43 GMT -5 warchariot said:

"As for the USS Meatshield Defense... the way we have always played is that all missiles move, stop in the first hex with a target, then attacks are resolved after all missiles movement is done. So we have never been able to pop a DD (or CAR in this case) very quickly and then let the rest of the missiles go in to the BCR. I looked at the FAQ and in the rulebook and I don't see a clear ruling on how that works though, so maybe we have been playing it wrong. (dreadnaught?)"

You are correct and we have played it the way you do all along. On page 42 the rule says, "Once the missile enters a hex containing a target its movement immediately stops and the missile switches to attack mode." Then on the next page it says, "Once a missile is armed and it occupies the same hex as a target, the missile switches to attack mode."

So I can see where you could argue that each group of missiles attacks in turn so you could clear a path. Of couse this wouldn't apply in the example because they are all one stack. The reason I don't believe this is true is because of the movement sequence. On page 19 the rulebook says, "After all missiles have been moved, the Aggressive player resolves attacks for all missiles that have entered the hex of a valid enemey target." It goes on to say the Tactical player does the same. Hope that clears it up

So an example...

Player launches 6 ASGMs and places 3 missiles in one hex then 3 missiles in the hex directly behind it. There is a badly damaged DDR (only 7 hull points left) between the missiles and their intended target (a BBF). During missile movement all 6 missiles move into the DDR's hex so all have to attack. Let's say the DDR rools badly for PD and fails so stop any missiles, the first missile hits and penetrates which destroys the DDR. (again, using MvM rules, so no shields.)

So what happens to the remaining 5 missiles? Are they free to move again in the next missile movement phase or are they discarded?

Either way, this blows Bubbacleese's plans out of the water. The BBF will get to move (and fire) before these missiles can turn and attack again.

[TheDreadnought]

May 1, 2011 10:38:43 GMT -5 warchariot said:

"As for the USS Meatshield Defense... the way we have always played is that all missiles move, stop in the first hex with a target, then attacks are resolved after all missiles movement is done. So we have never been able to pop a DD (or CAR in this case) very quickly and then let the rest of the missiles go in to the BCR. I looked at the FAQ and in the rulebook and I don't see a clear ruling on how that works though, so maybe we have been playing it wrong. (dreadnaught?)"

You are correct and we have played it the way you do all along. On page 42 the rule says, "Once the missile enters a hex containing a target its movement immediately stops and the missile switches to attack mode." Then on the next page it says, "Once a missile is armed and it occupies the same hex as a target, the missile switches to attack mode."

So I can see where you could argue that each group of missiles attacks in turn so you could clear a path. Of couse this wouldn't apply in the example because they are all one stack. The reason I don't believe this is true is because of the movement sequence. On page 19 the rulebook says, "After all missiles have been moved, the Aggressive player resolves attacks for all missiles that have entered the hex of a valid enemey target." It goes on to say the Tactical player does the same. Hope that clears it up

Attacks are resolved after all missile movement is complete. So you can't "clear a path" through screening ships and hit a target ship beyond in a single turn. Sticking a destroyer between missiles and your tasty capital ship is a highly effective way of protecting your capital ship for a turn or two.

[warchariot]

"So what happens to the remaining 5 missiles? Are they free to move again in the next missile movement phase or are they discarded?"

Harry already answered, but just to be clear, yes the left-over missiles are discarded. This is one way of the ways the system keeps missile (or any weapon) from dominating the game.

[kashre]

May 1, 2011 10:52:09 GMT -5 warchariot said:

Lets have a challenge to decide the matter. I purpose that several different groups try out the example posted by bubbacleese. We each build the two missile ships, or bubbacleese can provide us his if he likes. Then you build/pick or whatever equal points to best defeat this blight on mankind. Then post your results!

What I'm thinking is the missile CA and BC verses the up-dated Colonial Armageddon D. I have two buddies, we'll play three games with each of us playing each side once. This round-robin format we use a lot for quick playing games. I'll post result once we're done. However it will be a couple of weeks as I'm out of town this next week.

Well... his examples all seem to be vanilla CBF ships... taking MvM ships with no shields against his missile ships seems a bit unfair... because really, if this was a pickup game and we were building units blind (the way we always play here) you wouldn't know if he had all missiles or not, and would have to have some shielding just in case he had all rail ships or somesuch.

My phazer/mag/rail BCR has level 7 shields, for instance... just for the sake of fairness.

I have not had the chance to play CBF in quite a while because only my G/F would play with me and she has become smitten with Twilight Imperium and Descent, so we mostly play those... but I just hooked up with a new gaming group and a couple of those guys are interested so I actually do want to play this out so I can provide some AARs.

In the past, I *have* fought with and against missile heavy fleets like this (although never a fleet with NOTHING but missiles), and they have won, and they have lost... probably lost more than they have won really... in the end, I just think that it's too inflexible... it's incredibly powerful when everything goes perfect, but it requires the perfect closing velocities, perfect init roles, and perfect positioning... the game is too chaotic for that to work out every time, or even most of the time, imo.

[warchariot]

"Well... his examples all seem to be vanilla CBF ships... taking MvM ships with no shields against his missile ships seems a bit unfair... because really, if this was a pickup game and we were building units blind (the way we always play here) you wouldn't know if he had all missiles or not, and would have to have some shielding just in case he had all rail ships or somesuch."

Is it unfair to the missile ships or the Colonial...as you say in a pick-up game I wouldn't know, but we/I don't usually take shields, but put that into armor and bigger guns, more FC and fighters. Why? Because my group doesn't use shield much unless it's a ST style game. It sounds like you anf your GF use shields, but against your new group, who knows. We always try to fool each other next time around. My point is, ASGMs can't and don't win every time because as a player you learn what your opponent does and counter that, just like in the real military.

My pick of ships was to try with one ship, no screens, Tigers only, no clusters and little ECM to see which would win. I know my ship is an AV 10, and Bubba Cleese was talking against a AV6-8 but he isn't going to get to pick the ships he fights against.

One last thing, If I can destroy an equal or better number of ships that cost the same number of points as mine, I consider that points well spend!