Post by kashre on May 7, 2011 18:19:59 GMT -5
So, after the energetic discussion in the main forum about weather or not missiles are too uber when used in "direct fire" mode, i.e. held until range 9 or less and massed in order to gain "automatic" hits, I convinced my G/F to dust off the Colonial Battlefleet counters and play a round with me.
This is in no way conclusive, being just a single game, but it does, I think illustrate certain points about missile use.
I Played the missile fleet.
Also, I Apologize for the crappy picture quality Also, I should mention that the images are mislabeled, they don't match the real turn numbers.
The ships:
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/shipcardDF.jpg
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/shipcardM.jpg
For the sake of balance, both sets of ships are identical except for their hardpoint loadouts.
Initial setup (from Meeting Engagement):
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/setup.jpg
Turn 1: I win the initiative. There is no chance that I can close to missile range, so I accelerate and move to 13 hexes, just out of her absolute max range. We exchange taunts across the table, but that's about it.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/turn1.jpg
Turn 2: I win the initiative again. In an effort to keep her cruisers as shields, she swings wide to one side.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/turn15.jpg
There's no way I can get to her flanks to make massed missile shots on her BCs with my own BCs, but I CAN with my cruisers, which have a slightly higher max speed. Since I don't have to worry about having my own meatshields OR focusing my fire on individual shields, I split my cruisers to her flank to see if I can get a lucky hit, and position my own BCs to take out her screening cruisers. Note: The dice are markers I placed on the hexes I wanted to get missiles into before I moved my ships.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/turn2.jpg
Turn 2 fire: She got to shoot first... given the fairly long range she did ok, knocking down the shield on one BCR and doing a small amount of hull damage (but no crits). Personally, if I had been her I would have gone for a CAR since they're so much more fragile, but that's just me.
I placed 8 missiles from the cruisers lined up on one of her BCRs, and six missiles each from the BCRs against her cruisers. I think that was my biggest mistake during this game... at the time I was thinking that with only 3 turns worth of ammo I wanted to conserve, but 6 was not enough to guarantee kills on both her CARs.
Turn 3:
I considered this the critical turn of the game. If I won the init, even if she accelerated to max and did a 180 to open the range I would have enough speed to maintain a range of 8 and get lines on her battle cruisers, especially if my missiles killed her CARs. Too bad I lost the initiative
Before ship movement the missiles hit. Against her BC, I did all right, although I failed to get any important crits (I got her PD and one shield), and knocked off about 1/4 of her hull points.
Against her first cruiser, her PD failed miserably and 4 of the 6 missiles hit and achieved penetration. One of the critical hits was on an empty hard point, causing extra hull damage and destroying the ship.
Against her second cruiser, 3 of the 6 missiles were shot down with PD... the 3 remaining missiles only got one penetration, which knocked out a shield.
Having lost the init, I swung to port with my BCs and continued to move around her opposite flank with my cruisers. First, that gave me maximum coverage to try and land hits on her if she continued after my BCs, my missiles the bread of a Clarita sandwich, and second, it gave her the option of maneuvering against my cruisers, buying me time to win the init again and take the upper hand... I figured that was worth it since my BCs had 3x the firepower of the cruisers.
She chose to take the bait and crossed over the the cruiser's track to keep the range from my BCs above 9 giving her enough separation to keep my BCs from having missiles shots. My cruisers never even got their missiles off... during the Cap Ship fire phase, she slaughtered them... one with a double zero critical hit which is amazingly enough the first time we have *ever* rolled a reactor hit in all of our games.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/Turn5.jpg
Turn 4:
Again I lose the initiative! This is why I never use fleets like this in most of my games I think this is where I made my second mistake.. I could have done a 180 and opened the range up to 10 or so... but I was worried about her getting shots on my weaker aft shields. So instead I swung down to the edge of the map to keep her from flanking my to my weaker shields.
She very carefully maneuvered herself into a position where her last cruiser was providing a shield for both of her BCs, leaving me no choice but to waste more missiles finishing it off and giving her good shots on my BCs. This was the beginning of the end for me.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/Turn6.jpg
With 8x hvy phazers, 8x railguns, 6x mag cannons and 2x phazers, my already slightly damage BCR didn't stand a chance, and was handily popped with enough hardpoints left over that she managed to knock down two of the shields on my other BCR. I did dump 6 missiles from each BC to take out the USS Cannon Fodder though.
Turn 5:
I lose the initiative, AGAIN. There's not much I can do to get away from them at this point, but I can run straight through her formation and make a 180, forcing her to keep both her ships close if she wants optimal shots on me, which she did. She did very cleverly stuck one of her BCs right in one of my one-hex-wide close range blind spots (see image link at end of report). Because she wanted to focus on a single shield, she decided to take whatever I could dish out with her other BC.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/Turn7.jpg
I dumped 12 missiles aimed at her previously damaged BCR, and she blew me a new orifice just like the last turn.
Turn 6:
This turn raised a question... all of my ships were dead, but there were still missiles on the board... are they autonomous, or are they removed from play? We decided to leave them in play, even though the fact that we can move missiles at will rather than them following a pre-determined course based on target direction (ala drones in SFB) makes me think maybe they should be removed from play if there are no friendly ships to control them.
Anyways, my missiles hit, 9 got through her PD, and 5 of those scored penetrations, causing a total of 70 hull points of damage... enough to kill the ship.
So there it is. My conclusions:
--Missiles *are* extremely powerful when fired up close rather used for long range saturation. Especially when you have shielded ships to protect you a bit more from the close range assault. This is a major difference between vanilla CB and MvM, where there are no shields.
--Missiles are only really that powerful on RDF ships.. you have to have the delta and turn allowance to capitalize on proper positioning, even if you do win the initiative.
-- If you're facing RDF missile ships, having a number of light ships to screen your force is of paramount importance. If I had used more missiles to take her screens out on turn 2 I think I would have won. Of course, if she had had 4 DDS instead of two CARs the huge boost to her PD and all the extra meatshielding would have made it really hard for me to win even if I had won the init I think.
-- You're not 100% screwed with missile ships if you lose the initiative, but your life will get a lot harder.
Missile coverage:
A ship can guarantee hits on any ship in any of the red hexes in a single turn, as long as he has an empty hex to put missiles in and there are no screen ships to be met on the way to the target.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/closemissiles.png
This is in no way conclusive, being just a single game, but it does, I think illustrate certain points about missile use.
I Played the missile fleet.
Also, I Apologize for the crappy picture quality Also, I should mention that the images are mislabeled, they don't match the real turn numbers.
The ships:
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/shipcardDF.jpg
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/shipcardM.jpg
For the sake of balance, both sets of ships are identical except for their hardpoint loadouts.
Initial setup (from Meeting Engagement):
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/setup.jpg
Turn 1: I win the initiative. There is no chance that I can close to missile range, so I accelerate and move to 13 hexes, just out of her absolute max range. We exchange taunts across the table, but that's about it.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/turn1.jpg
Turn 2: I win the initiative again. In an effort to keep her cruisers as shields, she swings wide to one side.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/turn15.jpg
There's no way I can get to her flanks to make massed missile shots on her BCs with my own BCs, but I CAN with my cruisers, which have a slightly higher max speed. Since I don't have to worry about having my own meatshields OR focusing my fire on individual shields, I split my cruisers to her flank to see if I can get a lucky hit, and position my own BCs to take out her screening cruisers. Note: The dice are markers I placed on the hexes I wanted to get missiles into before I moved my ships.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/turn2.jpg
Turn 2 fire: She got to shoot first... given the fairly long range she did ok, knocking down the shield on one BCR and doing a small amount of hull damage (but no crits). Personally, if I had been her I would have gone for a CAR since they're so much more fragile, but that's just me.
I placed 8 missiles from the cruisers lined up on one of her BCRs, and six missiles each from the BCRs against her cruisers. I think that was my biggest mistake during this game... at the time I was thinking that with only 3 turns worth of ammo I wanted to conserve, but 6 was not enough to guarantee kills on both her CARs.
Turn 3:
I considered this the critical turn of the game. If I won the init, even if she accelerated to max and did a 180 to open the range I would have enough speed to maintain a range of 8 and get lines on her battle cruisers, especially if my missiles killed her CARs. Too bad I lost the initiative
Before ship movement the missiles hit. Against her BC, I did all right, although I failed to get any important crits (I got her PD and one shield), and knocked off about 1/4 of her hull points.
Against her first cruiser, her PD failed miserably and 4 of the 6 missiles hit and achieved penetration. One of the critical hits was on an empty hard point, causing extra hull damage and destroying the ship.
Against her second cruiser, 3 of the 6 missiles were shot down with PD... the 3 remaining missiles only got one penetration, which knocked out a shield.
Having lost the init, I swung to port with my BCs and continued to move around her opposite flank with my cruisers. First, that gave me maximum coverage to try and land hits on her if she continued after my BCs, my missiles the bread of a Clarita sandwich, and second, it gave her the option of maneuvering against my cruisers, buying me time to win the init again and take the upper hand... I figured that was worth it since my BCs had 3x the firepower of the cruisers.
She chose to take the bait and crossed over the the cruiser's track to keep the range from my BCs above 9 giving her enough separation to keep my BCs from having missiles shots. My cruisers never even got their missiles off... during the Cap Ship fire phase, she slaughtered them... one with a double zero critical hit which is amazingly enough the first time we have *ever* rolled a reactor hit in all of our games.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/Turn5.jpg
Turn 4:
Again I lose the initiative! This is why I never use fleets like this in most of my games I think this is where I made my second mistake.. I could have done a 180 and opened the range up to 10 or so... but I was worried about her getting shots on my weaker aft shields. So instead I swung down to the edge of the map to keep her from flanking my to my weaker shields.
She very carefully maneuvered herself into a position where her last cruiser was providing a shield for both of her BCs, leaving me no choice but to waste more missiles finishing it off and giving her good shots on my BCs. This was the beginning of the end for me.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/Turn6.jpg
With 8x hvy phazers, 8x railguns, 6x mag cannons and 2x phazers, my already slightly damage BCR didn't stand a chance, and was handily popped with enough hardpoints left over that she managed to knock down two of the shields on my other BCR. I did dump 6 missiles from each BC to take out the USS Cannon Fodder though.
Turn 5:
I lose the initiative, AGAIN. There's not much I can do to get away from them at this point, but I can run straight through her formation and make a 180, forcing her to keep both her ships close if she wants optimal shots on me, which she did. She did very cleverly stuck one of her BCs right in one of my one-hex-wide close range blind spots (see image link at end of report). Because she wanted to focus on a single shield, she decided to take whatever I could dish out with her other BC.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/Turn7.jpg
I dumped 12 missiles aimed at her previously damaged BCR, and she blew me a new orifice just like the last turn.
Turn 6:
This turn raised a question... all of my ships were dead, but there were still missiles on the board... are they autonomous, or are they removed from play? We decided to leave them in play, even though the fact that we can move missiles at will rather than them following a pre-determined course based on target direction (ala drones in SFB) makes me think maybe they should be removed from play if there are no friendly ships to control them.
Anyways, my missiles hit, 9 got through her PD, and 5 of those scored penetrations, causing a total of 70 hull points of damage... enough to kill the ship.
So there it is. My conclusions:
--Missiles *are* extremely powerful when fired up close rather used for long range saturation. Especially when you have shielded ships to protect you a bit more from the close range assault. This is a major difference between vanilla CB and MvM, where there are no shields.
--Missiles are only really that powerful on RDF ships.. you have to have the delta and turn allowance to capitalize on proper positioning, even if you do win the initiative.
-- If you're facing RDF missile ships, having a number of light ships to screen your force is of paramount importance. If I had used more missiles to take her screens out on turn 2 I think I would have won. Of course, if she had had 4 DDS instead of two CARs the huge boost to her PD and all the extra meatshielding would have made it really hard for me to win even if I had won the init I think.
-- You're not 100% screwed with missile ships if you lose the initiative, but your life will get a lot harder.
Missile coverage:
A ship can guarantee hits on any ship in any of the red hexes in a single turn, as long as he has an empty hex to put missiles in and there are no screen ships to be met on the way to the target.
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/Kashre/missile%20test/closemissiles.png