Smoke Problems?

[aman]

We've read and re-read the rules, and can't figure out what we might be doing wrong...

AT the moment, when using the Laying Smoke rules btw USN and IJN we're finding that the IJN can't win. The USN fights behind a screen of destroyers using smoke.. Using radar they can shoot thru it with no penalty, and the IJN can't draw a LoS thru it. It isn't very hard to maneuver USN DD and CL to keep up a constant barrier, especially when it lasts for two turns.

Using the seaplane reconnaissance rule helps, as at least the larger IJN ships can shoot thru the smoke albeit at +1. However, the smoke screen makes many CL and all DD totally useless as they cannot fire guns or torpedoes through the screen. The battle then becomes a fight btw the USN and the IJN CA.

We're in a bit of a quandary, and are trying to figure out if we're doing it wrong. we wanted to play a night mission and test out the Torpedo rules, so we picked all DD / CL forces and went at it. We set up according to the Night Fighting rules, and I used the smoke to screen my ships. In short order, I was sinking a ship or two a turn as he couldn't draw any LoS to me.

Historically, smoke didn't seem to be used at night. Perhaps the simple solution is "Smoke may not be layed at night". Also, if the USN was penalized even at +1 or +2 it would make a difference. Finally, it seems to me from reading Hara's account that once the DDs had a bearing on the enemy, it didn't matter if they could see them or not, they'd let go a spread and hope for the best. So maybe Torpedoes should be able to target thru smoke, but at a penalty.

Anyway, we're wondering if anyone else has tried to really use the Laying Smoke rule, and what they think of it. I don't want to prohibit it since it was a regular tactic. I just didn't realize that the radar + smoke combo would make the USN unbeatable.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or corrections.

[TheDreadnought]

The problem is that historically smoke+radar could have been used with lethal effect by the Americans against the Japanese.

It just. . . wasn't. . . because the Americans just didn't trust their radar that much.

So the historical capability was there, but the psychology of the people at the time didn't allow it to be used.

I encourage you to use whatever house rules you deem appropriate in this case.

[regiamarina]

Aman,

In the other thread where you asked this question I mentioned an article Shigure found about US radar around Guadalcanal. You should try and find the link as it's quite informative. It goes into not only the radar's abilities and limitations but the fact that it simply wasn't trusted as it was such a new technology. I think it was Shigure but a search on the forum for radar should find it eventually.

Martin

[aman]

of course, we can make any house rules needed However, if something was a technological possibility, but never done, it seems to me the basic rules should start with the historical limitation. I therefore propose the following rules changes for early war:

- Ships cannot lay smoke at night.
- USN Radar allows ships to draw LoS through smoke, but with night range modifiers (+1, +2, +4). USN ships may use Spotter Planes normally instead.
- Ships laying smoke can be targeted, but using night range modifiers.

[meesch56]

I think that the real question here is the allied reluctance to trust their radar at night.early in the war. Especially around Guadalcanal. Maybe the unreliable Radar rule should apply if smoke screens block LOS at night.

Actually ..........isn't there a rule that early war USN FC is unreliable anyway (I'm away from my books)

Ships laying smoke did so below decks and did not produce external illumination....right? if no then they could be targeted as if illuminated.

Just a thought......

Several naval gamers at NAVCON questioned the effectiveness of smoke at night. Smoke is a cloud of particles that blocks line of sight. Why wouldn't it work at night? The fact that it was not a tactic that was employed......makes me wonder why? Was the radar used for gunnery only or was navigation also privy to the info....if no then it makes sense that you would sail around blindly through smoke in the dark.....but it could have happened.

Shirgure ......enlighten us please

[shigure]

Certainly smoke will work at night, but remember, visibility is already limited. A change in wind direction or a mis-read signal and a ship ends in the wrong position. Next thing you know the possiblility of a collision with a friendly ship becomes a reality. So, I think this is why ship commanders were very reluctant to use it at night. A night battle is confusing enough without having to wonder where the ship in front of you went when it disappears in a smoke screen. We gamers have the ability to see where our ships are located, I doubt in an actual night battle a ship commander trying to locate and fight the enemy wants to have any misgivings about where friendly ships are. About the only use for smoke at night around Guadalcanal would be to cover your retirement.

[djbar]

I thought it seemed odd to use smoke at night (as Mike did in the Nav-con Guadalcanal scenario). Since Nav-con I've been doing doing more research on those battles and I was surprised to find the passage below in James Hornfischer's book Neptune's Inferno. This took place during the Battleship Night Action at Guadalcanal, Nov. 14-15, 1942 (2 nights after the scenario we played at Nav-con). US BBs South Dakota and Washington were firing on Kirishima, Atago, Takao and assorted Japanese CLs and DDs.
Here's the quote: The light cruiser Sendai and the destroyers Shikinama and Uranami were the objects of this large-caliber fury. Though Hashimoto's small squadron was engulfed in that maelstrom, not one of his ships was actually hit. The Sweeping Unit commander, the first naval officer to take fire from sixteen-inch guns, ordered his captains to lay a smoke screen - of little benefit against a radar-guided foe - and reverse course to seek other opportunities to "sweep."
This supports Shigure's comment about using smoke to cover your retreat.