Ship Roles

[unclejoe]

So what do you like to build the most of for your lists? Do you diversify a lot or do you find yourself mostly going with a few Roles?

For myself, it obviously varies by Tech Level, but in general I am currently enamoured by RDF ships. Even as a 'baseline', it seems to be a good choice. I've always been a proponent of speed and maneuverability over raw power and that Role gives me that ability.

Battleline is a good backup. The free FC and the ability to take a lot of crits and keep on tickin' seems pretty desirable.

Scout and Screen also fit well with my vision of how to build a fleet. I wish they were a bit more flexible though. I would love to see Screen CAs or Scout CLs maybe. Maybe even Screen DDs...after all, when I think 'eyes of the fleet', I think DD (which also double as Subs in the Scout role due to Stealth).

Carrier is specialized...it is what it is. If you're bringing more than a few Squadron, you pretty much have to use this role.

I have so far been unimpressed by Defender and Flagship. Defender sounded good at first, but double shield recharge hasnt worked out to be as cool as it originally sounded. It's still nice vs Fighters which have to hit multiple shield, but the majority of our casualties so far have come from a single shield being punched through and then the ship going bye-bye. The Defender role doesnt really help a lot there. The +1 PD and +10% Hull Points are also nice, but again, they dont quite equal the Battleline's ability to shrug off the crits and +1 FC IMO.

Flagship has been pretty unimpressive so far as well. If you could have a Flag CA, we might see more but as is, it seems like a pretty big sacrifice on a capital ship to take this role. 2d10 is pretty random and getting +2 there doesnt seem like enough of a payoff. I guess I'm used to the +2 on 2d6 from Axis and Allies: War at Sea minis so the smaller benefit here seems to pale a bit. The free squadron of INTs seems almost like a booby-prize There is also the side benefit of being able to bring an additional light combatant, but so far I havent seen this to be a compelling need either.

I *do* have ships of those latter two types in my fleet lists, but they are rarer than the others, particular RDF, my current favorite. Time will tell if I chose poorly.

What are your favorites? Are there any that don't find yourself using as often either?

[Jester]

So far, the vast majority of my ships have been Battleline (as I typicaly indentifiy with the "big slow gun boat of doom" mentality . My second fav is the screen as we have been pretty scared of missiles and stealth mines and my Screen CLs have really helped out in the last few games.

My opponent (Joe) would probaby say RDF is his favorite as he too likes the "speed and manaverablity" aspect of ships (Played Eldar in BFG and they were the king of movement). While I havent created any RDF ships I absolutely see the benifit there and think its a great choice for a ship (just not mine ).

Weve both taken carriers since as you point out, if you want more than a few stands of fighters, this is the ship for you.

I also tend to agree with your assessment of Defender and Flagship roles. I really like the concept of Defender (harder to kill but not as much punch) but the regen just dosnt help when the shield gets penetrated.

I dont know what the solution is (or if it even needs one as I have all of 5 games under my belt )...maybe its more sheilds rather than (or in addition to) the regen rule. As it stands now, I can destroy a Defender ship almost as easily as I can a regular ship (the 10% hull points do help but im not sure its enough to sacrifice the Battleine or RDF roles).

Weve only played with one Flagship so far and the +2 Int was nice but im not sure we would sacrifice a RDF or Battleline ship for that. Again, like the concept but just not sure if I would take it (I havent yet but then Im still muddling my way through everthing .

Both Joe and I really like the scout role. It fits his play style even better than mine but its pretty versitle (stealh, targeting benifits, harder to hit).

That would be interesting to see screen DDs (as thats what they did often in WW2...Fletcher class for the win).

Also, we have kicked the idea around of having a faction benifit to allow CLs to be scouts. Not sure what the tech cost would be but this would enable players to recreate the "stealthy" fleets (read Eldar, Minbari and all other evil, good for nothing, sneaky little...but I digress ).

Dreadnought, what are you thoughs on DD Screens and CL Scouts? Obviously we can house rule it with a faction benifit cost (added to Unclejoe's list) but any idea on how that might affect game play?

[unclejoe]

Weve only played with one Flagship so far and the +2 Int was nice but im not sure we would sacrifice a RDF or Battleline ship for that. Again, like the concept but just not sure if I would take it (I havent yet but then Im still muddling my way through everthing ).

I think part of the issue here is that there are definitely advantages and disadvantages to going either first or second. So the odds of that +2 mattering on a round when it is CLEARLY better to choose one over the other are much smaller. In WAS, going second is ALWAYS an advantage so you put more emphasis on winning the initiative.

In CB, we've found that it's often a toss-up as to whether you want to be Aggressive or Tactical. So paying that hefty of a price for something that MIGHT allow me to choose doesnt seem all that necessary.

[TheDreadnought]

Jul 1, 2010 16:07:14 GMT -5 Jester said:

Dreadnought, what are you thoughs on DD Screens and CL Scouts? Obviously we can house rule it with a faction benifit cost (added to Unclejoe's list) but any idea on how that might affect game play?

.

DD screening ships would be too cheap for the benefit they confer. That's why they didn't get the role when I designed it.

I had some concerns about whether Scout CLs might be a little much, but never really drove it out. That might make an appropriate (powerful) faction benefit.

OTOH - I'm looking at CAs and BCs with Stealth Generators for Star Trek style play - but there's also a lot of opportunity to limit the other capabilities of that race.

I'm not sure I'll change the flagship or defender role. . . but I'm open to suggestions.

[unclejoe]

DD screening ships would be too cheap for the benefit they confer. That's why they didn't get the role when I designed it.

Yeah, that was what I thought too, but in a way, that's not a bad thing since the other people would want mid-range small fry to kill them. It creates an escalation mechanic which might interesting.

I had some concerns about whether Scout CLs might be a little much, but never really drove it out. That might make an appropriate (powerful) faction benefit.

Hmm, I really like that idea. Perhaps a combo of allowing DD Screens and Scout CLs would make a REALLY cool faction...

Of course I'd have to figure out how to make the spreadsheet allow that....

I'm not sure I'll change the flagship or defender role. . . but I'm open to suggestions.

I'm not sure they really need a change. Different strokes for different folks methinx. I'm sure some people will really appreciate that +2 Init, but it just doesnt hold as much value for me at this point since I'm usually happy with whichever initiative slot I get.

[kenh01]

Once Harry decides what he wants to be offical, I'll fit it into the spreadsheet. When I added the faction sheet I was already thinking of faction benifets.

Ken

[warchariot]

"I have so far been unimpressed by Defender and Flagship. Defender sounded good at first, but double shield recharge hasn't worked out to be as cool as it originally sounded."

For the Flagship role, I think it should be combined with Carrier and Battleline, so you would have a BattlelineFlagship role and FlagCarrier role. They would have the benefits of both. It should cost some more tonnage, for the Admirals combat command center and such, but then it would be used.

The Defender role in BSG is not as attractive because there aren't any shields, so Carrier and RDF with some Screens are the way to go. So maybe the way to fix these are with each fleet book. The roles would be tailored to the type of fleet. Once a couple of Fleet books hit the shelves, the campaign book could include these or say you can use them from the Fleet books. ;D

I also would like to see some other combinations like RDF/Carrier role. Again this would cost more and be limited to say BC and under or some such limit.

[theoz]

I find myself wondering about the possibility of combining ship roles; producing a BattleFlag or a FlagCarrier. It's been a truism in naval architecture that building ships for multiple roles usually means that ship isn't much good at any of the roles.

Perhaps what might work (and might not) is to allow players to trade-off the various benefits of the different roles. If a player wants a Carrier that's also a Flagship, allow her to choose which benefits to combine. For example, the main benefits for Carriers are:

1. unlimited launch/land for fighters (within the limit of the hexgrid)
2. range 24 for fighters

The main benefits for a Flagship are:

1. Initiative bonus
2. Extra escort
3. Free Interceptor squadron

To make a FlagCarrier that's intended to provide the CAP for the fleet, you might select the "unlimited launch/land" ability and the "Initiative bonus" ability. If you instead want to build a FlagCarrier for an independent strike group you might choose the "range 24 fighters" ability along with the "Extra escort" and "Free Interceptor squadron" ability.

Of course, this would have the potential to majorly mess with the game balance.

[warchariot]

That's a sound idea, however I think it could be confusing. When a ship became the flag, it didn't lose any ability, it sometimes had a confused chain of command, but it could still do what it could before.

[theoz]

Arguing from a historical perspective (which I usually do) it's true that making a ship a flagship didn't cost her anything much. USS South Dakota gave up two of her 5" twin mounts to provide flag facilities, and that's the only serious firepower sacrifice I can easily recall.

But making a "Flagship" in CB doesn't cost that ship anything. All you are "giving up" is the option of giving the ship some other role: RDF, Screen, Battleline, etc.

I'm just wondering if it might make/break the game if players were allowed to "pick and choose" from the various benefits the different roles give.

[warchariot]

Jul 2, 2010 14:08:17 GMT -5 theoz said:

Arguing from a historical perspective (which I usually do) it's true that making a ship a flagship didn't cost her anything much. USS South Dakota gave up two of her 5" twin mounts to provide flag facilities, and that's the only serious firepower sacrifice I can easily recall.

But making a "Flagship" in CB doesn't cost that ship anything. All you are "giving up" is the option of giving the ship some other role: RDF, Screen, Battleline, etc.

I'm just wondering if it might make/break the game if players were allowed to "pick and choose" from the various benefits the different roles give.

Yep, that's why I think the multi-roles should be set and should cost some additional weight. There could be a limit also, like only one Battleflag or Flagcarrier. But there needs to be some set limits to what there can be and how it will work.

[unclejoe]

Question about the RDF role...I think I found out why I considered it to be the best and I'm hoping that I've been playing it wrong.

According the spreadsheet, if you have an RDF role, you dont need to buy a point of Delta because the free point is sufficient to fulfill the requirement to have one. Reading the rules under ship construction, it says that all ships must PURCHASE one point of Delta, not HAVE one point of Delta.

Soo, if you actually have to BUY one, that makes that role look a little less attractive (which I think is a good thing since it seems REALLY good now). As it stands now for my ships (using a BC for example), I can save 100-150(!!) tons by not buying a Delta. That translates to more defenses and more firepower (and/or more FC) which means that I get all of the fun maneuverability benefits from the RDF without much 'cost' (and in fact, I could have more firepower than an equivalent Line or Flag vessel).

So what is the official scoop? Are all RDFs at a minimum of 2 Delta (ie, must purchase one and then one free one) or can you use the free Delta to fulfill the requirement?

[TheDreadnought]

Nope. The rules say "Purchase" one for a reason.

[unclejoe]

Sweet, OK, that helps with one issue I've been finding with my designs!

[kenh01]

I'll check out the spreadsheet on that, currently there is nothing to stop you from designing a ship that is against the rules and still printing the SSD.

Ken

[warchariot]

Glad to hear that, we wondered about this, but figured you had to buy a Delta. This was an issue with FT with FTL drives. Thanks for clearing that up.