Destroyer Survivability

[fannyhil]

Your opinion please:

After player the Spartivento scenario, it occurred to me that a single 8" shell would take down almost any destroyer. I have no doubt that it would do serious damage but I wonder if a single shell would sink a destroyer every time? I can see if it hit a vital area like the engine room or a magazine, but other areas?

I have some books coming based on this group's suggestions and perhaps there will be some examples in there.

Your thoughts?

[regiamarina]

An 8" shell tearing through a more or less fast, unarmoured hull will do a massive amount of damage. My play group always uses the over-penetration rule which does change things a lot and we now use the new to hit numbers and movement cost for evasion. Destroyers survive much better but still should not be charging undamaged cruisers, never ended well. I also see 0 hull points as rendered combat ineffective rather than straight out sunk.

Historically one shell could render a destroyer combat ineffective. Read up on the Second Battle of Sirte and the damage done to HMS Cleopatra by one 6" shell hit. Depending on the report the bridge, radar and radio were all gone, as well as possibly the rear turrets. Up to 3 months dry dock for repairs from one shell.

Also remember what these rules were trying to achieve, a balance between historical accuracy and playability. What you are talking about is almost introducing hit locations on ships and would get bogged down very quickly in book keeping. Nothing stopping you from introducing a house rule if the game doesn't feel right to you.

Martin

[fannyhil]

I have no doubt that an shell of almost any size passing through a destroyer will be destructive. I realize that there were occasions when a single shell did knock out a destroyer, but my question is: is that the norm?

We too have been using the over penetration, harder to hit modifier and new evasive rule.

I too see zero hull points as being combat ineffective.

I am not looking for hit locations but wondering if the hull point rating is valid? It feels right for the larger ships, but I think the DDs really get a raw deal.

[regiamarina]

I think you'll be pushing it if you want a typical or normal description of what happened to a destroyer when struck by shellfire. Some like HMS Cleopatra were all but done by a single shell, others like USS Monssen took a pounding but still was rendered combat ineffective almost immediately. Being struck by about 40 shells at once tends to hurt but the USS Monssen stayed afloat and continued to burn for about a day.

Most effective actions by destroyers against cruisers the destroyers had numbers on their side and used outside influences to their advantage. Things such as night, using smoke to hide, ambushing from around an island or dragging enemy cruisers into your own cruisers were what they tended to do rather than slug it out with enemy cruisers. If they tried to go toe to toe with heavier units they failed, gallantly, but failed.

In the immortal words of Dirty Harry " A man's got to know his limitations", it's apt for a destroyer too.

[afilter]

When I read over penetration I immediately thought of the battle of Samar (Taffy 3) where several instances of large caliber shells passing through a DD and DE without detonating are described.

It is my guess that this particular battle is what inspired Harry yo include the rule.

[theguy]

Why do you think they are called "tin cans"?

[TheDreadnought]

Jun 1, 2012 11:59:26 GMT -5 fannyhil said:

We too have been using the over penetration, harder to hit modifier and new evasive rule.

I too see zero hull points as being combat ineffective.

I am not looking for hit locations but wondering if the hull point rating is valid? It feels right for the larger ships, but I think the DDs really get a raw deal.

So I guess the real question is, with the rules you are using, are you seeing destroyers last the appropriate amount of time in your games, or not?

Keep in mind that game turns are around 4 - 5 minutes long. So a "single 8 inch shell hit" could represent several, or a dozen actual hits.

There's a certain level of abstraction to the rules that you can't get rid of unless you want to play Seekrieg (and who wants that??), and your focus should be on the outcomes the rules create, not necessarily the details of the rules themselves.