Alternate rules for subs?

[makataimeshekiakia]

Are there any alternate rules for subs that are not so abstract.

Move along and shoot with other ships?

Possibly have

Move step: Battleship

fire in the torpedo phase?

[TheDreadnought]

In any alternate sub-rules you would also need to consider the detection of subs as well.

The problem with subs as "on the table" units, is that it creates a completely unrealistic play environment for using them. Players will see and respond to the movments of sub miniatures that ought to be undetectable. In addition, sub owners will be only too happy to sacrifice subs for the mere chance of doing some damage to a major enemy ship. In real life, subs would tend to attack only when they could do so undetected, and would run if detected.

If you're going to come up with some sort of detection scheme, it will undoubtedly be related to range from an ASW capable ship. Then you have to come up with rules for how the ship would engage the sub.

If you're going to do that, why not just play with the abstract rules? It reinforces realistic fleet behavior and allows subs to be a credible in-game threat while making destroyers into more than just an expendable one-shot torpedo delivery system.

Basically, the rules as written model sub warfare quite effectively in terms of the effect it has on surface combatants. I'm not convinced the innate fun associated with maneuvering sub miniatures on the tabletop offsets the additional rules required and the movement away from realism in a historical game. But. .. YMMV.

[shigure]

Normally in WWI or WWII subs would not be involved in fleet battles. There a few examples such as the USS Nautilus at Midway (carrier forces separated by 150+ miles) or the U-boats at Narvik(anything coming up the Fjord would not be German). If the gamemaster wanted sub(s) involved there would be no friend or foe identification and I imagine that both sides would have to roll for detection. If detected the sub would have to be attacked by escorts from whichever side detected the sub, friend or foe. The only time I (many years ago using GQ rules) ever used a sub in a fleet battle was off Guadalcanal and its position was pretty much locked down to the expected approach path of the USN fleet. If they had used another route I would have missed them. I managed to get off a shot (& sighting report) and damage a cruiser while escaping undetected (night battle). The IJN fleet commander (myself) knew where the sub was and the path of advance would not take it anywhere near the sub's position. The USN player was using radar, but as I was set up fairly close to an island and sitting stationary on the surface, he did not detect me.

[foxbat]

I found the sub rules one of the most elegant bits of Naval Thunder, for the very reasons TheDreadnough stated : subs had a huge operational impact, but little tactical significance once battle was joined. Losing a DD or two in a headlong torpedo charge may well mean you'll lose a cruiser or worse as your force heads back to port the following day. I'll add that it is nearly hopeless for a sub which, submerged, will have a hard time sustaining 10 knots, to get in position and range and fire torpedoes at targets that won't sail under 20 knots. The only instance of a capital ship torpedoed during a naval engagement is HMS Resolution, severely damaged by Vichyst submarine Beveziers off Dakar during Operation Menace in 1940. That the RN force was firing at Vichyst units that safely kept under the protection of the shore batteries, and, consequently, cruising the same waters must have played no small part in this feat however.

[lincolnlog]

Re-openning and old topic:

While I would agree subs played little to no tactical role in standard fleet actions, they played a huge tactical role in convoy interdiction. Convoy games are also IMO extremely fun to play.

Dreadnaught brings up a really good point. Sub movement needs to be hidden, ASW needs to contain a detection and attack phase. What I would suggest is leave the Sub rules alone in the core rule book where it applys to surface engagements, but write a supplement on Sub/Convoy actions that can be incorporated into the core rules for those that desire more detail. A suggested title: "Steel Sharks and Merchantmen". I wrote an expanded set of rules for another system concerning ASW warefare and hidden sub movement.

[warchariot]

Nice idea, another book!