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Post by robertthedamned on Mar 5, 2011 10:04:17 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I've finally given in and bought Battleship Row and Bitter Rivals. I have to say I'm impressed with the simple but well structured mechanics, it looks like this game will be a breeze to play. Just what I expected from an SDG publication.
I'm just a little stumped where to start with fleets. I'm quite tempted to get the ships for all of the British vs German scenarios, would these be a good place to start?
I was thinking of buying these ships then perhaps expanding the fleets to make two fairly matched sides with some extras so I'm not always fighting the same fleets against each other. Of course these would be very much 'what if' as both nations were very reluctant to commit their fleets to any serious engagement (almost makes you wonder why they bothered building them in the first place!).
I'd love to do some Pacific sea battles but I'm not to familiar with the fleets involved. I'm actually slightly surprised that no scenario was included for the battle of Midway, I guess it is rather a large battle, perhaps it would make a good multi-player game though?
I'm most likely going to be using 1/3000 ships from Davco and Navwar, the extra expense of GHQ is just not an option despite how lovely the models look.
Sorry for the rather scatter brained/rambling post ;D I call it new-game syndrome.
Rob.
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Post by fastgit on Mar 5, 2011 10:26:00 GMT -5
Midway ( and Coral Sea, Santa Cruz, etc.) is tough because so much of the action centers around carrier ops... and NT isn't really designed for that. At least, not as a focal point.
Denmark Strait (Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, Hood, Prince of Wales) and River Plate (Graf Spee, Ajax, Achilles, Exeter) are good introductory scenarios... but there's not a lot after that (historically speaking). Sure, you've got Scharnhorst and Gneisenau raiding convoys... but not much else.
The Pacific War sees more surface action... especially early. The Germans built pretty ships... but they weren't much of a surface navy: 2 battleships, 2 "large" cruisers, 3 "pocket" battleships, and a handful of heavy cruisers.
You might want to look at the 1942 battles around Guadalcanal.
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Post by warchariot on Mar 5, 2011 10:30:31 GMT -5
1. I'm just a little stumped where to start with fleets. I'm quite tempted to get the ships for all of the British vs German scenarios, would these be a good place to start? I think you should start with the fleet you like best. Then add on its enemy. I would start with a small battle just so you can get those ships ready quickly.2. I'd love to do some Pacific sea battles but I'm not to familiar with the fleets involved. I'm actually slightly surprised that no scenario was included for the battle of Midway, I guess it is rather a large battle, perhaps it would make a good multi-player game though? The scenarios in Battleship are great places to start. The Midway battle and other famous fights are carrier battles which are not really addressed and not a lot of fun since the fleets didn't see each other. There are some great what ifs that could be done from them.I would go with the 1/3000 ships from Davco as you are a painter and these have some detail without being the GHQ price. Ask Aaron and Jeff about their thoughts on this as they are the ship guys around here. Hope this helps
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Post by warchariot on Mar 5, 2011 10:32:03 GMT -5
Ask Fastgit too! We must have been answering at the same time!
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Post by robertthedamned on Mar 5, 2011 11:19:04 GMT -5
Midway ( and Coral Sea, Santa Cruz, etc.) is tough because so much of the action centers around carrier ops... and NT isn't really designed for that. At least, not as a focal point. Ah that is true, I think my unfamiliarity with this part of WW2 is showing. That's what I was thinking, fairly small numbers of ships and few extra rules. Just capital ships duking it out. They are rather pretty, which is part of the reason I'd like to get them. As most of my models end up spending more time on the shelves as ornaments than on a table as gaming pieces. I'll look into it more, I'm fairly familiar with the infantry action on Guadalcanal, but my knowledge of the naval battles in that region is rather basic. 1. I'm just a little I think you should start with the fleet you like best. Then add on its enemy. I would start with a small battle just so you can get those ships ready quickly. Sounds like good advice, I've always had an interest in British ships as my grandfather was part of the Royal Naval Coastal Patrol and was deployed around Burma during WW2.
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Post by afilter on Mar 5, 2011 11:48:38 GMT -5
NT Provides alot of opportunity for What if action in WWII. If your prefernce is Historical then you are on the right track with River Plate and Denmark straight. I would also explore the Med as there are several opportunities there for IT vs. UK and even UK vs French.
Once you are familiar with the system and decide you like it I would encourage you to explore CoD and RoTB as there is a ton of Battleship on Battleship action in those eras and subs and planes were a non factor. Personally I think this is NT strength and the earlier periods play to it very well. Before discovering NT I was strickly a WWII Naval Gamer. Now I have to say the Pre-dread and WWI are really my favorites.
As for ship models it is really up to you. If you are starting with nothing then 1/6000 for WWII is not a bad choice due to the large game ranges and the fact that you can aquire entire fleets for a relatively low cost. You sacrifice detail, but make up in quality. They really can be painted to look quite nice as BBOK has proven as long as you have the eyes for it.
I use 1/1800 from WoTC (War at Sea) only because I already have all of them and mnay to class limits and see no point in duplicating fleets. The benefit of the War at sea line is they come pre-painted ready to go. Unfortunatley many of the iconic units are out of print now and can be costly on the secondary market. This is always an issue with a collectible mini game.
Otherwise my choice is 1/2400 with my WWI and Pre-dread fleets for the detail. GHQ would be my first choice, but can be costly as others mentioned if you plan to do huge fleets. If you are talking the 8 models for the intro scenarios it would not be to bad as ther are some decent Online retailers. Personally I have a mix of GHQ(smaller quantity) and Panzershiffe along with a handful of viking forge.
I swear by Panzershiffe for the Pre-Dreads and even the smaller WWI and WWII ships. I just cannot recomend them for the larger WWI and WWII capital ships as they lack the detail I personally desire. Even with the pre-dreads they do not come with the masts, but I have discovered adding these is a really fun challenge and you cannot beat the price of Panzershiffe at $3-4 a ship.
HTH,
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Post by robertthedamned on Mar 5, 2011 12:43:20 GMT -5
NT Provides alot of opportunity for What if action in WWII. If your prefernce is Historical then you are on the right track with River Plate and Denmark straight. I would also explore the Med as there are several opportunities there for IT vs. UK and even UK vs French. I have thought about these battles but many of them seem to have been decided by factors other than the ships present, with much confusion on both sides. I'm already looking at WWI stuff for the future, might actually be part of WWI that is worth gaming. Pricing in the UK seems to be rather differant than in the US. For instance: I can get a Davco (cast by skytrex) or Navwar 1/3000 scale battleship for approximately the same price as the Hallmark 1/6000, but the GHQ 1/2400 version is about 8 times the price. People seem to have mixed opinions on Navwar's service, so they'll be my backup for classes that Davco don't produce. I've got a ton of other stuff from Skytrex and their service has always been fast. Its just a shame neither of these manufacturers promote their product very well. I've found a small selection of photos online but you would have thought manufacturers would have realised people want to see the product they're buying by now. I'd love to order from them but their order limits for international orders doesn't make it easy.
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Post by fastgit on Mar 5, 2011 13:55:49 GMT -5
I'd love to order from them but their order limits for international orders doesn't make it easy. That's a real shame... I've been extremely pleased with the cost:detail ratio and service provided by Panzerschiffe. And, although I threw out a couple of suggestions... I agree with Warchariot. Go with what you like, and build from there. The Brits are a good choice because you'll get Brit cruiser actions in the Atlantic, S. Pacific, and Med! Then, once WWII has whet your appetite... you can jump into Pre-Dreads with both feet! ;D
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Post by warchariot on Mar 5, 2011 16:29:22 GMT -5
I'd love to order from them but their order limits for international orders doesn't make it easy. That's a real shame... I've been extremely pleased with the cost:detail ratio and service provided by Panzerschiffe. And, although I threw out a couple of suggestions... I agree with Warchariot. Go with what you like, and build from there. The Brits are a good choice because you'll get Brit cruiser actions in the Atlantic, S. Pacific, and Med! Then, once WWII has whet your appetite... you can jump into Pre-Dreads with both feet! ;D Of course RotB2 will be out
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Post by fastgit on Mar 5, 2011 16:36:37 GMT -5
Of course.
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Post by regiamarina on Mar 5, 2011 21:34:41 GMT -5
Rob the best place to start is to get a fleet that interests you. This will motivate you to paint and play and then expand into other areas. The Germans had a small and relatively inactive fleet but the ships are sexy, the camo schemes are interesting and noone ever said you have to stick to historical scenarios only. The Germans are one of the few navies in WW2 where it is possible to get all the ships they had without breaking the bank. If you get the Germans then the obvious opponents for them are the British which then allows you to expand into the Med if you want to. This can then bring in the Italians and French. I've played some really excellent Vichy French and Germans versus British games. The Pacific is my main area of naval gaming and it allows for a huge variety of games however with relatively few battles being slugging matches between the BBs. Lots of very interesting cruiser and destroyer actions took place in this theatre, just look at the battle of the Java Sea for the different combatants involved there. If you choose to get a different fleet from the Germans then the following website is an excellent source for naval OoBs. This will give you a good point to see how many ships you might want for various battles and which ships were involved. www.navweaps.com/ Hope this helps. Martin
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Post by TheDreadnought on Mar 6, 2011 10:57:30 GMT -5
One advantage of getting the Germans and British is that the quality of the ships at the battleship level is fairly comparable.
While I love the big modern U.S. battleships, the unfortunate truth (from a gaming perspective) is that the South Dakota and Iowa classes pretty much dominated almost anything else afloat at the time, certainly in the European theater. For that reason, when playing the U.S. fleets, i actually prefer 'what if' scenarios involving the Pear Harbor battleships.
Germany, Britain, France, and Italy are all a fairly even match in terms of quality, and, except for The Royal Navy, are generally smaller, so you can own more of them.
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Post by fastgit on Mar 6, 2011 14:57:30 GMT -5
Good points, all... The various 'colored' warplans (red, black, orange, etc) of the US (typically 1920s) are interesting places to look, as well.
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Post by robertthedamned on Mar 6, 2011 19:55:42 GMT -5
The Germans are one of the few navies in WW2 where it is possible to get all the ships they had without breaking the bank. Yeah I accidentally nearly did that the other day, just about all their capital ships, no escorts though as I'm finding it hard to find models of the ships I want. Perhaps some research into which other ships would be easy to modify is in order. Yeah that is the general plan I think, I quite fancy the scenario with HMS Warspite that's in Bitter Rivals. Very useful site Martin, thanks very much!
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Post by regiamarina on Mar 7, 2011 18:37:52 GMT -5
Rob
with regards to ships if space and money are a problem then Hallmark do an excellent 1/6000 range for WW1 and WW2. The ships are small but very nicely detailed and paint up superbly. If you want slightly larger and more detailed ships then 1/3000 Navwar and Skytrex/Davco are your only choices so you may not be able to fill holes easily. Slightly larger again you have 1/2400 which can be very expensive when you look at GHQ but there are alternatives such as CinC miniatures and Panzerschiffe. CinC are lead miniatures ranging from about half to 2/3 the price of GHQ but have less detail. They are very clean and nice minaitures though. Panzerschiffe are resin miniatures and the detail and quality of miniature can vary a little they are generally nice and very cheap. Viking Forge also do 1/2400 miniatures but I don't know what they're like but I've heard they are quite nice for the price. 1/3000 is certainly cheaper than 1/2400 but filling out the fleets you get would be easier with 1/2400 scale ships.
Happy Hunting Martin
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Post by BattleshipOverkill on Mar 7, 2011 18:55:10 GMT -5
I'm very pleased with the 1:6000 ships I recently purchased. They did a great job with the detail on such small miniatures.
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