Design decisions

[unclejoe]

OK, so I'm about halfway through designing my races for my demo game today. I'm designing two pretty basic factions to oppose one another.

But one thing I'm noticing in my designing is that some of the decisions really seem to be no-brainers. For example, why would you ever NOT want to max out the Shields/Armor for a specific ship? They are extremely cheap overall, especially for larger ships.

The meaningful decisions seem to be Delta (expensive as hell), Fire Control (scales up nicely), and Weapons. The Defense decisions seem to be non-existent though...buy it all.

Am I missing something here? Why are defenses so cheap? To me is takes some of the gut-wrenching decisions away from ship design. IMO the most entertaining design systems force you to make hard choices at every step of the way. It should also seem like you never have enough space for everything you need.

Anyways, I'm planning on finishing out these fleets and then going and seeing how it plays. I'm relatively certain the gameplay should be quite good, but I guess I'm just a little disappointed so far with the initial designing aspects. Time will tell!

Thanks for reading!

[RiflemanIII]

Honestly, I think you should actually play out a game for yourself to see how things actually work in practice. Shields can get stripped fairly easily even by ships not optimized for it, and armor really goes so far- on most ships, it doesn't even go to the next street corner. Defenses are so cheap because how one conducts their offense and maneuver are the big deciding factors in practice, and are priced accordingly.

Another thing is that you seem to be neglecting the role of, well, Roles. In my own play, a much larger Flagship was rendered non-battleworthy by a volley of fire while the smaller Battleline ship was able to keep on truckin' after taking what would normally be a crippling assault. The choice of roles, while it doesn't actually use any hull space, makes a big difference on how a ship plays in practice, and there are enough pros to each to make that decision wrestle-worthy.

[TheDreadnought]

What he said.

Plus, as you gain experience you will find you start developing some approaches to what you want to put on the offensive side for your ship. It becomes very tempting to "just drop one" shield or or P DEF die, so you can squeeze on that extra weapon, or upgrade your rail guns to heavy rail guns. But before long, you've stripped away significant portions of your ship's defense in the name of squeezing in the 'extras' if you're not careful.

Play a few games. Once you've done that I think you'll find the design decision making requires more wrestling.

[Jester]

Hia Joe! Im relatively new here as well so I am by NO means an expert (Have only played 2 very small solo test games and just had my first real game today) but will throw my 2 cents in anyway .

I totally agree that i want any system (whether its buying different types of ships or designing them yourself) to make me agonize over the decision. Thats the true test of any game system for me. If I always choose "x" because its a no brainer, then its a bit of let down. I also hear ya on the armor/shields being fairly cheap. Having said that, ive rather enjoyed the ship building process so far (aka, agonized over defense vs offense ). I find myself often scaling back both shields and armor to get that one extra hardpoint or ammo for my Battleline ships.

In the end for todays game, I ended up with a fleet with very few shields(none on my BBB) and low armor so I could get even more weapons in. For me, it was still a fairly tough decision and almost cost me the game as my opponent did the exact opposite. Had about 50% more defenses but less weapons. It was a nice contrast and the fleets felt very different. I had a lucky shot and destroyed one of his BCs early so that cut his firepower down but if he had a chance to target my BB with NO shields, Im sure I would have been sorry ;D.

Anyway, I also agree with you that “time will tell”...so far, we are really liking the system. We have another game scheduled for Tuesday so will hopefully have a better grasp afterwards.

Look foward to hearing how your game goes. Keep us posted!

[warchariot]

Again think roles. The ships are easy to build, but what can they do? You really can't have everything, so pick wisely based on what each ship will do in our game.

[unclejoe]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the input. We successfully completed our first game tonight. I'll stand by my initial assessment about armor...you can never have enough IMO. It's FAR more important than Shields IMO since it pulls double duty - it halves enemy damage and even more, it prevents crits. And armor is cheap.

Given that most weapons are d6 or d10 pen, the difference between 5 armor and 6 is HUGE. All those wonderful looking Autocannons and whatnot seem pretty nifty vs lightly armored ships, but they barely tickle a BC+ with 6+ armor. When something has 70+ hit points and you're hitting it for 2-3 due to non-penetration, your ships seem pretty ineffective.

For Shields, whereas they are definitely not as important as armor IMO, they still seem well worth the cost in most cases. The Shield rating adds to ALL sides defense and just as importantly, adds to regen. There are plenty of shield-defeating weapons though, so if I had to skimp on a defense, it would be shields. Armor is just TOO key.

We had some...interesting...experiences with missiles. I ref'ed the game so I got to take a fairly objective look at the combat. Neither player felt that launching at range seemed to be worth it, but that is prolly just inexperience. Only one set of missiles launched at range impacted and it only impacted on a minor vessel. Up close, missiles can be quite evil. They are virtually guaranteed to strike if you are on any direct hexside and within 8 of a missile ship. And they are pretty deadly!

Finally, my players evaluated cap ships as EXTREMELY powerful, even compared to equal or slightly higher tonnage of cruisers or smaller. The ability to fire FIRST without fail is huge and the higher armor means that many weapons dont accomplish much vs them. Of course all it takes is one lucky hit to destroy or incapacitate one, but relying on that kind of luck to stop them is not a very sound plan . They are costly beasts, but seem well worth the cost. Of course a handful of RDF ships with good torpedo armament could have a field day against a lone cap, but I think they really left an impression as powerhouse with us.

[warchariot]

Now mess with the tech levels. If you are running ships that are all 5s or right up there, then you have just begun to experince the fun. Try 15 points of tech for each faction and see what they can come up with. Oh and missiles at range are the only way to go. See my post under guided missiles thread.

[unclejoe]

Yeah, I went with 15 points for tech. I have some other input on those, but that will wait for another post.

I think missiles at range will be fine if you can saturate an area. But in smaller games with smaller numbers of launchers, it's an exercise in being careful to avoid them. Couple that with the ability of RDF ships to scrub them pretty effectively and it seems better to hold them for 'sure' things.

I'm sure there is a breakpoint though where firing a HUGE throw weight can result in causing serious damage before closing. But even with salvos of 6 ASGM, they just weren't enough to risk having one not land.

[kashre]

I think that's where it's important to have deep enough magazines. The best of both worlds is having enough missiles to force them to maneuver during the approach and get the nifty guaranteed avalanche of hits once they get within 9 hexes.

And screening ships... super important. Then you can

a> have RDF light ships running around ECMing missiles,

b> have a literal wall of light ships that missiles must be expended against, especially since missile attacks are all resolved after movement. The missile using player will be forced to choose between turning missiles away into bad positions or massively overkilling the screening ships. Although I have to say, I wouldn't want to be on the crew of a CL in this game.

c> make all your screening ships have the screening role. The 4 cap ships in Warchariots example in the other thread were kind of sitting ducks against heavy missile fleets, but 3 cap ships with 6 CLS would have added a looooot of PD to the group.

[TheDreadnought]

W/ respect to your comment on capital ships. Yes, they are very powerful, but they have to be to justify their cost. On the other hand, unescorted capital ships get shredded - like the poor battlegroup in Warchariots missile tactics thread. Bottom line, you need a variety of ships, in a variety of roles, with a variety of weapon systems.

Sure, you could take all BBBs with heavy rail guns and so long as your opponent does the same, you'd be ok. But he takes even one missile heavy ship and all of a sudden you're at a serious disadvantage by the time he closes. So you can take 1 missile heavy ship, and a couple screening cruisers - and suddenly it's him who has a problem.

As far as using smaller salvoes as "an exercise in being careful to avoid them". . . exactly! You can use your missiles to force your opponent to maneuver the way you want him to. That's a huge advantage in and of itself! Plus you keep getting to bring them around and around, so once they're out there, they are a continual threat.

[warchariot]

b> have a literal wall of light ships that missiles must be expended against, especially since missile attacks are all resolved after movement. The missile using player will be forced to choose between turning missiles away into bad positions or massively overkilling the screening ships. Although I have to say, I wouldn't want to be on the crew of a CL in this game.

Yes, this would soak off the missiles, but it still kills points and strips away the cover for later attacks.

c> make all your screening ships have the screening role. The 4 cap ships in Warchariots example in the other thread were kind of sitting ducks against heavy missile fleets, but 3 cap ships with 6 CLS would have added a looooot of PD to the group.

This is our next step, to add some screening ships to the Colonial side. At this point, were just trying to get tactics for missiles, rail guns, and fighters down along with a good feel of the main ships in BSG.

[kashre]

Jun 27, 2010 12:19:40 GMT -5 warchariot said:

b> have a literal wall of light ships that missiles must be expended against, especially since missile attacks are all resolved after movement. The missile using player will be forced to choose between turning missiles away into bad positions or massively overkilling the screening ships. Although I have to say, I wouldn't want to be on the crew of a CL in this game.

Yes, this would soak off the missiles, but it still kills points and strips away the cover for later attacks.

True... but that's what's so great about this game, you have to make a balanced fleet to do well, and you have to trade off between high firepower ships and support. Having a wall support between your cap ships and the missiles wont make you magically invincible, but it will save you from one wave of missiles... which hopefully will be enough for you to do some damage and even the playing field.

doesn't always work out that way though

[warchariot]

Jun 27, 2010 14:57:21 GMT -5 kashre said:

Jun 27, 2010 12:19:40 GMT -5 warchariot said:

b> have a literal wall of light ships that missiles must be expended against, especially since missile attacks are all resolved after movement. The missile using player will be forced to choose between turning missiles away into bad positions or massively overkilling the screening ships. Although I have to say, I wouldn't want to be on the crew of a CL in this game.

Yes, this would soak off the missiles, but it still kills points and strips away the cover for later attacks.

True... but that's what's so great about this game, you have to make a balanced fleet to do well, and you have to trade off between high firepower ships and support. Having a wall support between your cap ships and the missiles wont make you magically invincible, but it will save you from one wave of missiles... which hopefully will be enough for you to do some damage and even the playing field.

doesn't always work out that way though

You're right, that's what is GREAT about the game. A lesson some other rule sets could/should learn. The best games make you think about what and how to do better next time, something I've learned many times with just a few games.